Premades Don’t Break Frontline — They Broke the Illusion of the Horde Stampede

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

The game isn't broken, but communication and coordination are strong. That doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It should be encouraged more! We need more fierce competition. You and others take the mode seriously, which I respect even though I disagree with you, but I think more organization needs to happen in this region.

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Instead of an outright ban, separate matchmaking for premades that matches them against other premades and matches solo players to solo players would go a long way to balancing FL, since it would pit like against like. Some would say then neither queue would get sufficient numbers for a game. That can be alleviated by ideas like reducing the overall player count for a FL match, or letting the queue pop at 8v8v8 and allow more players to filter in during the match in progress.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Instead of an outright ban, separate matchmaking for premades that matches them against other premades and matches solo players to solo players would go a long way to balancing FL, since it would pit like against like. Some would say then neither queue would get sufficient numbers for a game. That can be alleviated by ideas like reducing the overall player count for a FL match, or letting the queue pop at 8v8v8 and allow more players to filter in during the match in progress.

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Funnily enough I'm alright with this suggestion. I would use Solo Q as a means of practicing my individual skill, and pre-made queue to practice with a team.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Instead of an outright ban, separate matchmaking for premades that matches them against other premades and matches solo players to solo players would go a long way to balancing FL, since it would pit like against like. Some would say then neither queue would get sufficient numbers for a game. That can be alleviated by ideas like reducing the overall player count for a FL match, or letting the queue pop at 8v8v8 and allow more players to filter in during the match in progress.

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This would essentially ban from the game all premades that weren't made by sweety groups utilizing all the snowballing combos that give them such a weight on the board. Your little premade with 2 or 3 of your casual friends? Gone from the game.
The reason organized meta premades sweep the board is because they stack every advantage they have: coordination and communication (sync), meta comps and role abilities, and player skill, leaving very few venues for anybody on the other side if they don't stack the same advantages.
What you're actually proposing would actually harm casual groups the most while moving away tryhards to an exclusive queue sync (because their queue wouldn't pop on its own), just so you can have your full solo experience. Some people are ready to see the world burn I swear.

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Originally Posted by Valence

This would essentially ban from the game all premades that weren't made by sweety groups utilizing all the snowballing combos that give them such a weight on the board. Your little premade with 2 or 3 of your casual friends? Gone from the game.
The reason organized meta premades sweep the board is because they stack every advantage they have: coordination and communication (sync), meta comps and role abilities, and player skill, leaving very few venues for anybody on the other side if they don't stack the same advantages.
What you're actually proposing would actually harm casual groups the most while moving away tryhards to an exclusive queue sync (because their queue wouldn't pop on its own), just so you can have your full solo experience. Some people are ready to see the world burn I swear.

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The suggestion of banning premades carries no thought on the long-term repercussions. We've known this.

The game needs more incentives to learn and play well, and to do away with participation rewards and lethargic play. Only then will the evil premades' contribution be less impactful.

Lethargic play is not an issue on EU servers, premades are.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Lethargic play is not an issue on EU servers, premades are.

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Says the lethargic player.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

No need to be rude. I decline your demand to debate you.

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I'm just asking for an example from you. I don't see how that's being confrontational, to quote someone, and I deny your attempts at mischaracterizing me.

I was simply asking what your ideal FL experience would be. Something which seems to be impossible for you to explain. Probably because you're the person described in the original post ("Only way to combat premades is by fighting tooth and nail to be a better horde. They turn the game into a repetitive, static slog. Ban premades." <--- I just want to be rewarded for zero/low effort.)

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because you are determined to misunderstand what I'm saying

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I asked you for clarification and this is after you full on did what you're accusing me of, as well as making assumptions on things I said (I never said anything about VC, for example.)

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

Funnily enough I'm alright with this suggestion. I would use Solo Q as a means of practicing my individual skill, and pre-made queue to practice with a team.

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Strangely, the Feast had this and it was done away with.

E: This might've come off as more snarky than intended, so editing.

I think the issue is that it splits the playerbase of an already small group to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Trevski

What's amazing is that the biggest advantage that premades have (shotcalling/leadership) can be done by anyone who has solo queued and is willing to step up. But no one wants to do that (see again: I'm used to a low-effort playstyle) and instead get upset.

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Let's be completely honest here: that statement is really stretching the truth. Within EU, it's entirely false.

Before you jump to any conclusions, I have played both alongside and against premades regularly. There is issue on both sides and I wouldn't say that I agree with either side of the argument entirely.

Amongst casual players, the attitude of 'only here for the exp' and widespread disinterest in the outcome of the game is the biggest issue. If a player were to AFK for the entirety of any other duty or just spend their time dancing in a corner, they would be quickly kicked without hesitation. But within FL, this is considered perfectly acceptable? I completely agree that there is a huge unwillingness to learn or put in any kind of effort from the vast majority of players who are purely there for their roulette exp. The current system doesn't help this any, with a lack of attention to PvP (unless it's CC), minimal rewards, and almost no distinction between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. There's no reason for players to want to try improve their skills within PvP.

However, to try to claim that a premade's success can be replicated by a solo player who is willing to command is a huge stretch on the truth (in EU at least). There's a reason that the majority of the premade commanders rarely play solo and, if they do, it's usually in a non-meta class and not commanding - because to try to command solo requires this totally disinterested, uncoordinated, and inexperienced group of players to follow your calls and know what to do. As much as you can try, 90% of the time, this won't happen.

You won't have the meta setup that premades have, with GNBs, ASTs, and DNCs poised and ready to do their job at your call. You'll have maybe a small handful who are trying to follow but not quite sure how or are a little delayed/distracted in their responses, you'll have a large proportion totally ignoring any kind of call and just going about their own way, and maybe a couple who are actively trying to make your job harder (removing markers etc.).
You can try to play defensively, using classes to counter the premade but, as a solo player, you are again relying on your team to make use of the opportunities/warnings you give. If they're too busy licking ice...

I agree, there's a huge problem with the playerbase's attitude towards PvP and that is where many faults lie. But to say that a premade's advantage can be achieved by anyone playing solo, is a huge stretch of the truth.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

Let's be completely honest here: that statement is really stretching the truth. Within EU, it's entirely false.

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Given that the OP specified NA, I have to disagree. I know several folks, myself included, who solo queue and shotcall.

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Amongst casual players, the attitude of 'only here for the exp' and widespread disinterest in the outcome of the game is the biggest issue. If a player were to AFK for the entirety of any other duty or just spend their time dancing in a corner, they would be quickly kicked without hesitation. (...) There's no reason for players to want to try improve their skills within PvP.

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I agree with pretty much everything said in there. The biggest issue is an unwillingness to put forth effort (just see the person who is so rabid about banning premades because they're a low effort player) and the celebration thereof.

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I agree, there's a huge problem with the playerbase's attitude towards PvP and that is where many faults lie. But to say that a premade's advantage can be achieved by anyone playing solo, is a huge stretch of the truth.

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The thing to keep in mind is that premades lose. They aren't, like some low effort players posting in this thread seem to think, guaranteed a win.

The point I'm making is that the idea of coordinating/organizing the team can be done by anyone. It isn't a skillset unique to premades. The issue is with the other 20-23 players and whether or not they want to drag ass/lick ice or actually participate.

As an aside, it sounds like EU is a gongshow and I'm sorry for that.

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I agree, there's a huge problem with the playerbase's attitude towards PvP and that is where many faults lie. But to say that a premade's advantage can be achieved by anyone playing solo, is a huge stretch of the truth.

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I'm saying that the advantage of cooperation/communication can be achieved by anyone. The problem is the word that's anathema to most folks: effort. It can be done, as I've been able to do so and I've seen others do so as well.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

Amongst casual players, the attitude of 'only here for the exp' and widespread disinterest in the outcome of the game is the biggest issue. If a player were to AFK for the entirety of any other duty or just spend their time dancing in a corner, they would be quickly kicked without hesitation. But within FL, this is considered perfectly acceptable? I completely agree that there is a huge unwillingness to learn or put in any kind of effort from the vast majority of players who are purely there for their roulette exp.

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You see afkers rarely in FL and most times they get kicked if you do a vtk.

I also don't see where how you get the impression the vast majority of players don't want to learn. That's simply incorrect. Remember how many stacked comets there were when role actions were introduced? How players tend to stick together, or hyperfocus on pressing their buttons on an enemy team to the point they don't realize the node they were defending despawned, or listen to and abide by callouts when provided. Vast majority of players want to play and have fun and have a good enough grasp of their toolkit to do so.