Questionable ethics - Living Memory

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Why use hunters and beast souls when they have a robot army and airships? I don't know. Maybe it's lazy world building. Maybe Zooral Ja was just a bad ruler and didn't care about such issues when he was focused on conquest.

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We're told that hunters are used for problems that aren't major enough to call in the military. Also that Zoraal Ja was a total warmonger and wouldn't divert resources for it anyway. As for using the beast souls, they didn't think any more of them than they would of picking up a gun. It's literally an entertainment industry in the Arcadion. Consuming souls is just how their society worked.

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Originally Posted by Kiarin

Note 1: if Endless are your precious citizens, dear Sphene, why the heck didn't you try to protect them? Put at least some guards around monoliths, you know? Especially considering that you saw and knew that we, hostile forces, have arrived into Living Memory.

Why we do even have to erase them instead of just shutting the system down? We know that only 1/10 of Endless are online, so that means they can be kept archived offline for no or much less energy. We could just put them all offline temporarily, without erasing the data itself, and take any amount of time to search for the solution of their problem. If we could fetch huge amounts of aether from 1st to 13th, we have all chances to reconfigure Sphene's system somehow. Maybe feed it the souls of voisent, lol, since they all want to die anyway. Perfect combo.

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The problem with this is the entire reason we have to erase them completely is because we have to eliminate Sphene's whole reason for continuing on her current course. If there's no more Endless, she no longer has a reason to commit mass genocide.

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Originally Posted by Kiarin

Note 2: when the fight with Robo-Sphene starts and she talks again about protecting her precious Endless, why couldn't anyone tell her - sorry, lady, we just erased all of them, so you don't have the reason to fight anymore?

Now, one could counterargument that we are effectively at war with Sphene's nation and we make harsh decisions in extreme circumstances. But erasing Endless doesn't serve to diminish Sphene's battle power. We are just targeting civilians, which is a warcrime - at least from Sphene's point of view.

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At that point we'd been too late, and Sphene had already begun the reconfiguration process. Telling her then that all of the Endless are gone wouldn't have achieved anything.

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Originally Posted by Mnemy

This also bring to mind one of the things that really fucked me up cus it conflicts so much with lot of shit that we fought Emet for.

Cahcuia's "Dont feel bad about shutting them down they are not alive" vs Emet's "I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you." Really took the cake for my disbelief in this expac.

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Not the same. In Emet's case it was more a matter of opinion. We are diminished, fractured versions of what once was, but we are still living beings with souls. His reasoning was more that we are so inferior to what we once were that he doesn't consider us people, more akin to mere animals because of how much we pale in comparison to our "perfect" ancient selves. In the Endless's case, they are literally not living. They don't have souls. They're more like a captured moment in time, like a picture or a story. The only difference being that they require killing real, living people to maintain that captured memory.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

Drivel.

Sphene was the aggressor, explicitly saying she would become a devourer of worlds and kill all life on all the remaining shards just to extend the life of her people. The only way to stop her was to shut down the Meso Terminal, which would also terminate all the other Endless.

You're calling self-defense to genocide a crime.

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Which is why we also went in and exterminated all the Garleans to the last man, woman, and child, right? Which is why when confronting the Telophoroi, we did our best to kill as many of them as possible rather than minimizing fatalities, right?

We're told the only way to stop Sphene is to shut down the Meso Terminal by Cahciua, who has been withholding information to railroad us into her own objectives from the second she finds us. Even assuming Cahciua is being honest despite that pattern of behavior, there was no way to extract Azem's paperweight from the terminal without shutting it down wholesale? There was no way to terminate Sphene's program, rather than the system as a whole? None of those options are explored by the Scions, who at every opportunity have endeavored to find another way that prioritizes their ethics over expedience.

Even assuming the story properly explored these questions, why would the Scions feel good about what they had to do? It was kill or be killed, to be sure, but the Endless themselves harbored no enmity. They didn't have agency in the actions of their regent. So why would you pin her actions on them?

But I'm sure you'll say this is all drivel. I expect nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Mnemy

This also bring to mind one of the things that really fucked me up cus it conflicts so much with lot of shit that we fought Emet for.

Cahcuia's "Dont feel bad about shutting them down they are not alive" vs Emet's "I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you." Really took the cake for my disbelief in this expac.

If the scions in DT is written by Ishikawa THIS would be a big issue and a BIG ASS RED FLAG. The Scions would be aghast with this, Cahciua is saying they are not alive but we see it to be contradictory, There is a truth to Sphene's words that just because they're machines/programs doesnt mean they arent sentient. Even Cahciua proves this by having the sentience enough to HATE the fact that shes alive because of souls of other people. HECK EVEN THE FINAL BATTLE PROVES THIS BECAUSE WHEN WL ENTERED THE STAGE SPHENE HAS SENTIENCE AND EMOTIONS ENOUGH TO REACT AND PARTIALLY RESTORE HERSELF IN REACTION TO WL. And has everyone forgotten the Omicrons and Omega? Hello?? I would love for the game to explore the moral dilemma of this problem because it could've been so gut wrenching and excrutiatingly painful for us to shut them down if we explored this more instead of the token shoved down our throats gimmick to harvest tears from players.

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IMO the issue is not even there. These people aren't people, they are basicly Memory AI. So it not like we would be killing them. HOWEVER, with Omicron lore and just, Ultimat Thule, FFXIV already esthablised that Ai and memory fragment are considered alive and concious being in canon.

So we're in a spot where AI are sentient, but only when it convinient.


Also yea compared to the Ancient, they hardly make it seem like killing the Eternal is a ethic problem, we just do it and don't even try to find peacefull solution, wich you know, even Emet tried with us even to he don't even consider us alive.

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Originally Posted by AlysCamoa

Which is why we also went in and exterminated all the Garleans to the last man, woman, and child, right? Which is why when confronting the Telophoroi, we did our best to kill as many of them as possible rather than minimizing fatalities, right?

We're told the only way to stop Sphene is to shut down the Meso Terminal by Cahciua, who has been withholding information to railroad us into her own objectives from the second she finds us. Even assuming Cahciua is being honest despite that pattern of behavior, there was no way to extract Azem's paperweight from the terminal without shutting it down wholesale? There was no way to terminate Sphene's program, rather than the system as a whole? None of those options are explored by the Scions, who at every opportunity have endeavored to find another way that prioritizes their ethics over expedience.

Even assuming the story properly explored these questions, why would the Scions feel good about what they had to do? It was kill or be killed, to be sure, but the Endless themselves harbored no enmity. They didn't have agency in the actions of their regent. So why would you pin her actions on them?

But I'm sure you'll say this is all drivel. I expect nothing more.

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We didn't have to exterminate the Garleans to stop Zenos, we never wanted to.

We never wanted to put an end to the Endless, but we had to. There was no alternative. It was either that, or Sphene exterminates all life on the source and the remaining shards.

Just as with Emet-Selch and the Endless, we will not sacrifice the living for the dead.

Apples to damn Zebra Cakes.

Yes, your argument is drivel, it makes no sense and ignores obvious information in favor of your personal head-canon and delusion that Erenville's mom is some scheming antagonist who is misleading us the whole time despite being... Erenville's mom.

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Originally Posted by AlysCamoa

The amount of people claiming the Endless are at all equivalent to LLMs, that the Scions tried to meaningfully persuade Sphene away from her cause, or that we shut down the terminals for any purpose other than to destroy the Endless while ignoring Sphene really speaks to the amount of cutscene skipping this expansion encourages.

At the end of the day, we did do something horrible. We played out Emet's example of moral relativism to a T. In the scenario we were given by the story, there really was no other option: we're gaslit into going along with Cahciua's plan (and Wuk's general stupidity) instead of doing anything even slightly more intelligent, so turning off the terminals to save the souls of the star is our only choice. So be it. That doesn't mean the Scions shouldn't feel horrible about doing so. Yet somehow Erenville is the only one who offers any meaningful introspection about the gravity of this plan. The rest of the group leaves Living Memory as a dead husk while smiling and laughing on their way back to Tuliyollal while a Disney sing-along plays. That's absurd. It's a complete travesty of how they've characterized this group, even within the trainwreck of Dawntrail itself.

Hiroi thought he was a good enough writer to handle these themes. He absolutely was not, and should be sent to an even deeper pit in CBU3 than Oda was.

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You're literally lying. We did not turn off the Meso Terminals because we had some kind of agenda to destroy the Endless ("while ignoring Sphene" is a particularly aggressive load of bs).

That's not to mention, Cahciua cites sacrificing living people as her motive. It would be unethical if she was targeting them because they are Endless.

And as much as it's badly written (because why did she just come to realization that living from souls causes her guilt???), the characters are very conflicted about turning off the terminals and the player has dialogue options to offer their perspective. When the terminals are turned off, it's portrayed as melancholy and no one is laughing. As far as the ending, thr story is not about LM and LM isn't real so why would they still be crying over it? At most I think an Erenville or Krile scene would be nice, bc they'd still be thinking about it probably. But the writing is not the best as you have noted. It has nothing to do with ethical theories. We are lucky to get moments of characters having introspection alone at all. They just wanted to spend ending scenes showing you bs we have already seen an a cartoonist raid.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

IMO the issue is not even there. These people aren't people, they are basicly Memory AI. So it not like we would be killing them. HOWEVER, with Omicron lore and just, Ultimat Thule, FFXIV already esthablised that Ai and memory fragment are considered alive and concious being in canon.

So we're in a spot where AI are sentient, but only when it convinient.

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I think the citizens of Ultima Thule are a bit different as they are creations of dynamis and don't require living aether to exist. They're also not threatening to make all life in the universe extinct.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Also yea compared to the Ancient, they hardly make it seem like killing the Eternal is a ethic problem, we just do it and don't even try to find peacefull solution, wich you know, even Emet tried with us even to he don't even consider us alive.

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Except we did. We tried several times, and Sphene was having none of it because her primary objective is to keep the Endless going no matter the cost.

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Originally Posted by AlysCamoa

Which is why we also went in and exterminated all the Garleans to the last man, woman, and child, right?

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I'd really love for you to direct me to the moment in the MSQ where we murdered innocent Garlean citizens and children.

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Which is why when confronting the Telophoroi, we did our best to kill as many of them as possible rather than minimizing fatalities, right?

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The Telophoroi were the aggressors. They were trying to kill all of us, we stopped them. It's pretty cut and dry there.

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We're told the only way to stop Sphene is to shut down the Meso Terminal by Cahciua, who has been withholding information to railroad us into her own objectives from the second she finds us. Even assuming Cahciua is being honest despite that pattern of behavior, there was no way to extract Azem's paperweight from the terminal without shutting it down wholesale? There was no way to terminate Sphene's program, rather than the system as a whole? None of those options are explored by the Scions, who at every opportunity have endeavored to find another way that prioritizes their ethics over expedience.

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It is literally stated that the Meso Terminal is connected to everything else in Living Memory. Even if there might have been another way, we have no time to figure that out because Sphene is about to become an emotionless digital construct hell-bent on exterminating every world she can get her hands on to sustain the Endless. I'm not even going to get into questioning Cahciua's honesty or possible ulterior motives because that seems like an entirely pointless and speculative conversation.

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Even assuming the story properly explored these questions, why would the Scions feel good about what they had to do? It was kill or be killed, to be sure, but the Endless themselves harbored no enmity. They didn't have agency in the actions of their regent. So why would you pin her actions on them?

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No one is pinning Sphene's actions on the endless. It's more that the Endless were required to justify her actions, and with them gone she no longer has any justification.

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Originally Posted by CerusSerenade

We didn't have to exterminate the Garleans to stop Zenos, we never wanted to.

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I've never disputed that, in the context of the (poorly written) story, the Endless had to die. We (the player character and company) are under no obligation to become the cows on the dinnerplates of Endless. Even so, us having a big ol' laugh party and sing-along as we leave the city we've just scoured of life is absurdly out of character.

Cahciua being Erenville's mom doesn't suddenly make her immune to analysis of her character. From the moment we meet her, she holds back crucial information that informs us about the grand designs at play. In the end, that serves her agenda perfectly, while denying the Scions to try and find true compromise between the people of Alexandria and the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

You're literally lying. We did not turn off the Meso Terminals because we had some kind of agenda to destroy the Endless ("while ignoring Sphene" is a particularly aggressive load of bs).

That's not to mention, Cahciua cites sacrificing living people as her motive. It would be unethical if she was targeting them because they are Endless.

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We did turn off the Meso terminals because we have an agenda to destroy the Endless. It's an agenda given to us by Cahciua, who withheld information from us the entire time we were with her. In fact, Cahciua's plan is explicitly stated to target the Endless in order to deprive Sphene of a reason to fight. We're destroying her people so that she no longer has a cause; to what end? Do we think she'll just forgive us for that? Then Hiroi, to his credit, goes on to say that doing this will make Sphene speed up dimensional fusion, which weakens the defenses of the Terminal. Alright, sure—processing faster requires more processing power. But in what other situations would the Scions choose the option that causes the villain's plan to actualize faster, rather than trying to find another solution? It doesn't even happen in this expansion. We wait for Bakool to try and attack us again after he takes Wuk's keystones. We wait for Zoraal to attack Tuliyollal again (still full of countless civilians) after the first time, electing instead to take a stroll around Sphene's farm. The only time we decide to be proactive is when it means the rapid and complete extermination of a new form of life we've just encountered (ignoring that they're not actually new, given the events of Ultima Thule).