Revert Shatter back to the Original Map

There should not be PvE nodes that spawn so rapidly in a PvP mode. Even if 96% of the time the team that PvP's the most wins, its still not fun to play on.

The majority of people who queue into front lines Don't understand what they need to do to win, beyond smacking ice. You can give them all the guidance in the world but it only takes one party of your alliance running off to go plonk ice to seal your teams fate.

The objectives in any PvP map should be quick, and obvious to spot out. Sure killing people is an obvious way to score points, but the majority of the community Does not enjoy PvP. So they're going to plonk ice whenever they can just to avoid it. Shatter will always suck as a result.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

I don't like the Big Ice on the corner, because if you decided to jump through the cliff for Big Ice on the corner, there's chance you get sandwiched by 2 GCs, unlike old Shatter's map where you can escape easily...

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I agree and it is annoying trying to look for a fast escape but you know if you jump down and the other teams know what they are doing you are cornered >.< I would like that to be fixed. I am not enjoying the new shatter as much it just feels boring.

I gave this map a chance for several matches, and it's... definitely not fun. It's pretty disappointing to be honest.

Just chiming in that I agree with the sentiment, summarized as:

• Lack of escape routes makes it easy for the other GC's to stomp any GC members jumping down.
• People don't understand and just focus on smashing small ice.
• Generally people will not read/not follow advice, leading to a splintered GC that is easy to pick off.
• Continuously spawning small ice acts as a distraction and takes away from the main objective.

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Originally Posted by Rexxus

To anyone who is trying to make the claim that new Shatter is 'too PVE' - It isn't. Its incredibly frustrating to have half of your team running around gathering small ice, when they should be focused on fighting enemy teams - yes.

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You're not wrong, but I think the argument is that the new shatter gives the "normie" little incentive to actually try and pvp, even more than the old shatter due to the fast spawn rate of the ice. In most of my fight so far, 8-9/10 times my team just runs to whatever ice is closest. "Do the objectivives pls", sigh... So, yes, the best obvious strat is to focus on the pvp part, but it's called pve because that is what ruins this mode.

It's like trying to herd cats. It doesn't work in shatter. They'll attack the small ice nodes, and to convince them otherwise especially in something like Alliance chat is a waste of effort. They do not want to make aggressive plays even if it were to mean a win for them. They'd rather just plonk the small ice nodes. That isn't PvP, that is PvE.

At least with a map such as Onsal, or Seal rock the value of nodes is known to everyone, its immiediately apparent what provides more points to your team, and people will naturally move to capture those points, which has to be done through PvP.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

I don't care about the JP forum, I speak english, I am on the english forum.

As for never had just PvP? Wtf does that make Onsal? Do people just stand around clicking the flags as fast as possible, making no effort to interupt captures? Onsal is literally a pure PvP map. I don't care if they add point pinatas, Though I'd prefer if they didn't. What they've done to shatter is a complete embarassment, the old version of it was fine, and nobody was asking for changes to it.

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I don't know if anyone else replied to this or not because the thread has gotten long, but pvp modes ABSOLUTELY need objectives other than straight deathmatch rules, which only works on very small scales. The original Wolves Den was straight deathmatch and it was awful. Slaughter was a straight deathmatch mode that existed on the old deprecated Secure map, and it was awful. Even the WoW arenas which are straight deathmatches and many players in that game enjoy are still incredibly unbalanced affairs that favor like 3 to 4 job setups in a season.

Even in Onsal, if you had no choke points and Ovoos to entice teams to move around the map, it'd be a shitty stalemate until one team loses a few players and it snowballs into a landslide.

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Originally Posted by Post

I don't know if anyone else replied to this or not because the thread has gotten long, but pvp modes ABSOLUTELY need objectives other than straight deathmatch rules, which only works on very small scales. The original Wolves Den was straight deathmatch and it was awful. Slaughter was a straight deathmatch mode that existed on the old deprecated Secure map, and it was awful. Even the WoW arenas which are straight deathmatches and many players in that game enjoy are still incredibly unbalanced affairs that favor like 3 to 4 job setups in a season.

Even in Onsal, if you had no choke points and Ovoos to entice teams to move around the map, it'd be a shitty stalemate until one team loses a few players and it snowballs into a landslide.

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I wasn't saying there Shouldn't be PvP objectives. I'm saying the PvP objectives should not be so abundant and plentiful that it removes the need to kill other players to achieve the objective.

-Onsal you must kill players in order to keep them from capturing Ovoos.
-Seal rock you must kill players to prevent them from capturing your tomeliths, or to take tomeliths from them.

That isn't true in Shatter. You can go and smash all the ice you like without needing to fire a shot at another player, because There is always ice spawning, at any given time. unlike the old shatter where;
-Ice nodes spawned once. If you ignored ice nodes, it put your team at a signficant disadvantage.
-You had to fight other players just to get to the Big node, or to keep your team in range of the big nodes.
-Small nodes mattered, and fights would occur between the contested small nodes.
-You had to fight other players to score points in the downtime between ice nodes, and pre-position your team for the next big ice spawns.
-Your team was forced to work together, or they'd get plowed, and lose.

This doesn't happen on the new shatter. You typically have 8 people on your team plonking small ice, and 16 people chasing big nodes and fighting with the other teams, and I say "fighting" its more like shoot at the enemy team a little before immiediately retreating because another big ice spawned not even 10 seconds after you just destroyed one. They chose this shameful excuse of a PvP rework to shatter, over other ideas they could have implemented, like using king of the hill, or a capture the flag mode to score points. The problem with Secure isn't that it has objectives, its that is has so many objectives that it encourages people to not PvP.

As for "Deathmatches". Theres a way to implement a deathmatch in a way that makes it fun, like pretty much every other MMORPG has done, including WoW. If you're looking for a PvP mode with 100% class balance it's not going to happen. There are always going to be "meta" jobs, and support roles which fill out other niches. Honestly, a pure deathmatch or even an Arena mode would be a lot more fun than what we currently have.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

. The problem with Secure isn't that it has objectives, its that is has so many objectives that it encourages people to not PvP.

As for "Deathmatches". Theres a way to implement a deathmatch in a way that makes it fun, like pretty much every other MMORPG has done, including WoW. If you're looking for a PvP mode with 100% class balance it's not going to happen. There are always going to be "meta" jobs, and support roles which fill out other niches. Honestly, a pure deathmatch or even an Arena mode would be a lot more fun than what we currently have.

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I'm always bemused when I see people say secure isn't pvp, when more than half the time your fighting to keep bases, I hope they fix/adjust the mid part but other than that and the occasional golfer, secure is a lot more pvp oriented than people say even more so than shatter, as for an arena deathmatch we had that with feast and previous modes but the devs in their infinite wisdom removed them

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I'm always bemused when I see people say secure isn't pvp, when more than half the time your fighting to keep bases, I hope they fix/adjust the mid part but other than that and the occasional golfer, secure is a lot more pvp oriented than people say even more so than shatter, as for an arena deathmatch we had that with feast and previous modes but the devs in their infinite wisdom removed them

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Secure did not have PvP, because teams would rotate between bases, and avoid each other. If two teams were tied up fighting over one base, the odd team out would capture 3/4 bases and eclipse them in points, and they'd have an easier shot at going up to middle and claiming points - Far more points then you'd accquire from killing the enemy teams. It didn't benefit your team to get into fights, except in the middle - and then you'd retreat after drones died to go capture bases again. The only real PvP going on in Borderland ruins were small scale skirmishes between 1-2 people on base nodes until the reinforcments rolled in and plowed their enemies out of the way. It's a heavily outdated map which has been limping along for far too long.

Personally I would have demolished the central tower where drones spawned, and put a king of the hill zone in the centre of the map - Forcing teams to choose between fighting for the centre of the map, and gigantic amount of points it would reward to the occupying team, or capturing, and holding 4+ bases which would yield an equal, or superior amount of points. That would make Borderland ruins a more exciting map to play on, and encourage offensive, and defensive plays.