Change the duty finder penalty

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

How do you know they're expected to be carried? How do you know they're simply trying hard and just failing?

As someone had said, four people suffered these wipe together. Unless the other players was AFKing while the OP bang his head against wall by himself, I don't see how the OP is the exclusive victim here.

Expecting your group to stay together to the end is not entitlement because that's the default expectation when you click on that join duty button. If it is, it's still far less an entitlement then someone who are expecting special treatment to the rule 'cause things don't go their way.




- And absolutely nobody said that.

- You are free to leave at any time.

- The entitlement is when you believe you deserved to be treated differently then what the rule specify.

You're keeping twisting and mingle these 3 separate things together, it's called muddy up an argument.

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Actually the "default" expectation is that you complete the duty, as you are joining DF to complete the duty. The "default" expectation is that your party will help you with the completion of the duty. .

I don't know what "rule" there is. But entitlement is expecting special treatment, not just from a "rule", just in general. You could argue that asking for the penalty to be waived after certain criteria is met would be special treatment, even though the penalty change would affect everyone. I won't argue with that. I don't agree with changing the penalty. Because while you like to claim that I'm conflating different arguments, you sure like to think I'm arguing in favour of things I'm not.

But when a vote abandon vote comes up and two people (who are trying to help) vote yes and the two people messing up mechanics vote no, that's acting entitled. If they were soo embarassed about causing wipes, they should have let the vote abandon go through. That way there wouldn't be a risk of someone getting mad at them.

You want to tell me not to assume things, yet you don't seem to be calling out anyone making assumptions that these people were embarrassed or trying their best.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Because none of that matter. Someone put it in a fairly simple but effective way: you're duty bound. When you use the Duty Finder, you're promised none of the following:

- You will be teamed with competent player.
- Your teamate had done their homework. (Watched Guide/Video).
- You will clear the instance in less than 6 wipe (or 10 wipes for that matter).

In fact, you can also expect the complete opposite to happen. But there is one thing that is expected of you:

- You will stay until the duty is clear, or when it's expired, or when the group collectively decides to quit.

That's it . You have the choice to opt out at any time you wish at the cost of a small penalty. If any of these term displease you, you can opt to use party finder for a more customizable set of expectation, as well a free opt out clause. When you use DF, you accept the risk above, no matter how small.

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This. If more people understood this is what they're signing up for when they let the game randomly match them with players instead of using the tools they have to customize their experience, then there would be less threads like this. We don't get to choose the people we run it. They're not going to always be perfect. And we get a slap from SE if we bail to remind us not to get too used to doing it.

And as Raven has also said, these instances are few and far between. I think I've had to throw in the towel only two or three times in almost 9 years of playing. Usually there's a vote abandon first. Once I explained to the group that I just couldn't keep trying and asked them to kick me and they did. Most times I will try to help turn the situation around. Sometimes all people need is someone not giving up on them.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I personally suggested a reduction after time spent in duty. Nothing to do with wipes. But I’m telling you, you won’t win these people over.

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I believe they weren't suggesting a reduction of penalty after 60 minutes. They were suggesting reduction of duty timer to 60 or 40 minutes, meaning the duty fails at that point. They even added at the end they believe the penalty should stay as is.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

But when a vote abandon vote comes up and two people (who are trying to help) vote yes and the two people messing up mechanics vote no, that's acting entitled. If they were soo embarassed about causing wipes, they should have let the vote abandon go through. That way there wouldn't be a risk of someone getting mad at them.

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You're trying to inject and draft your own expectation into a general match-making tool. If your own expectation is so important to you, like I said use PF. You can even set it as "Duty Complete" to further reduce the chance of running into clueless player.

The reason it is a vote is because the outcome can go either way. It's not much of a vote if you believe people are obligate to vote the way you want because of your own xyz. The default expectation when joining a group is you're staying, no one join a group with the expectation to leave. You can twist it however way you wish, but that won't change. The players who don't want to leave did not impose their rule on you, them game did. They're not the one trying to change the rule, you are.


In Democracy, you can try to persuade people to vote for you, but you don't get the right to call BS or shaming others who does not vote your way. Otherwise you're no longer competing for a vote, but just trying to impose your own rule. Kinda hard to remember that simple principle these day, I know. :p


And like I said, you keep making it sounds like people are being hold to this at gun point. The choice to leave is always there, it's only a problem is because people don't want to pay the cost associate with that choice. I'm pretty sure all of us have had bad run in. Sometime I stay, sometime I throw the towel. That is not what make the difference between me and the OP. The difference is if I decide to throw, I take the pen as an unlucky section of the day isntead of complaining about how I should be exempted because I already try too hard.

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Originally Posted by Bloodbeat

Please introduce a threshold of wipes to allow leaving a duty without penalty.
I'm not sure why it's fair that I should have to choose between a 6th wipe *at the same mechanic* and having a 30 minute lockout.

No amount of explanation, marking a competent player or hopping in the spot of the safe zone of the mechanic made a difference.

Even making the penalty proportionate to the amount of failures would be a start.

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This sounds like "Angry Mentor became Mentor and started Mentor Roulettes only to get mad that Mentor Roulette can put you into Extremes" drama.

But, yeah, assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You're trying to inject and draft your own expectation into a general match-making tool. If your own expectation is so important to you, like I said use PF. You can even set it as "Duty Complete" to further reduce the chance of running into clueless player.

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You are literally injecting your own expectation of DF. It's to clear content. Help each other clear content. That is it. If I didn't want people to help me complete the duty, I wouldn't queue in the first place. It's not to stay until the timer runs out. It's not to stay for 15 wipes. It's to complete content and help others complete content. It is to get people to do content that they may not normally do.

The penalty was introduced to discourage trolling, since the duty timer would often run out while waiting for someone to fill the spot. Just like the penalty for missing your queue too many times is to discourage trolling. I don't even give a crud if someone isn't a good player. I don't give a crud if they don't know how to do every mechanic. I don't give a crud if they're brand new and die to everything. I know I'm going to get all kinds of players when doing PUG content. I'm not some elitist who expects perfection. Expecting the completion of a duty is not some extreme view that I'm injecting onto others. Every single person queues with the intention to complete the duty they queue for. What a crazy concept!

I don't need to campaign for a vote abandon or a vote dismiss. And I'm not throwing a fit over how it turns up. I was literally responding to you making assumptions about how the other players felt. You really don't seem to understand who you are speaking with. All I have been saying is that while I don't want the penalty to change, I understand the frustration and that someone isn't a bad person for not wanting to put up with it. And that no one signs up to potentially time-out of a duty. They sign up to complete. Yet you think that's "injecting". Like, okay.

I have said countless times that I don't want the penalty gone so kindly stop telling me that I do and that I'm trying to change some rule to give myself (everyone) "special treatment". Move on.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

You are literally injecting your own expectation of DF. It's to clear content. Help each other clear content. That is it. If I didn't want people to help me complete the duty, I wouldn't queue in the first place. It's not to stay until the timer runs out. It's not to stay for 15 wipes. It's to complete content and help others complete content. It is to get people to do content that they may not normally do.

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I'm merely stating how thing are exactly how it has been for ten years. I'm interpreting as how it has always been and why thing is as it is. You're the one who trying to re-interpreting because you want change.

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I have said countless times that I don't want the penalty gone so kindly stop telling me that I do ...

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Then what are you even arguing about? My dude asking for change while saying they're not asking for change.

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... and that I'm trying to change some rule to give myself (everyone) "special treatment".

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Ah yeah, the age old of "I'm not asking this for myself but for everyone else". Dude, I don't know nor care whether you get some physical pleasure or mental satisfaction from it, but you're obviously advocating for something "you" want specifically. This is like trying to change the rule of a game, even if the rule will affect everyone it doesn't change the fact it's now played by the rule you want.

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Move on.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I'm merely stating how thing are exactly how it has been for ten years. I'm interpreting as how it has always been and why thing is as it is.

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Except it hasn’t. I myself have explained there has been change and why there was change. You yourself seem to have been around long enough to know it used to be different. On that note, things can still change.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Except it hasn’t. I myself have explained there has been change and why there was change. You yourself seem to have been around long enough to know it used to be different. On that note, things can still change.

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What changed?

I can remember is it's used to be you can exploit the cut-sceen sequence right when you zone in and dodge the penalty (which was famous for people picking between Castrum and Preato). They maybe other change but all of them are to address exploit where people dodge the lock out.

The spirit of DF has always been you either stay till it's done, or leave as the party's will, or eat the penalty if you decide to drop on your own.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

What changed?

I can remember is it's used to be you can exploit the cut-sceen sequence right when you zone in and dodge the penalty (which was famous for people picking between Castrum and Preato). They maybe other change but all of them are to address exploit where people dodge the lock out.

The spirit of DF has always been you either stay till it's done, or leave as the party's will, or eat the penalty if you decide to drop on your own.

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Well instead of throwing words in people’s mouths and accusing people of saying things they didn’t, why don’t you go back and re read the thread. Or idk, keep bullying max carnage. You do you buddy