Volcanic Heart is a bad map

If you don't understand how basic geometry makes cover work asymmetrically, and are intent on putting up the same strawman (that ranged is "useless") in every single post, then you are not worth engaging with.

e: Wait, are you saying that the solution is to play Bard up front with the melee blob to avoid getting LoSed? That's incredible if so; I suggest you try it and see exactly how that goes, having no numerical defensive and a low hp pool. Unless you're immediately converting on a kill, playing forward gets you deleted - and it won't entirely stop people LoSing your cast bars anyway.

Like I said: I *know* Bard. And Bard is not somehow unable to compete on Volcanic Heart. LOS can be used both ways. As someone a page or two ago mentioned, and was completely ignored (probably because the information they were dispensing wasn't favorable to the OMG VH SUX narrative people like Apeman are trying to push), you can *easily* use LOS to force melee to overextend in order to attack you.

LOS doesn't disfavor ranged or melee. Both can make effective and reliable use of it. Losing 1-2k damage per GCD on your filler for a couple GCDs is not going to somehow tank your performance and make you useless.

But I don't think you need to be told that, do you?[/QUOTE]

Pleas stop changing the topic of the argument to fit your narrative. No one has said bard can not compete. What has been said is bard and the other ranged jobs are at a disadvantage on this map( which, again, you agreed with). LOS can obviously be used by both teams regardless of class as an advantage but the way classes play makes this more of a problem for ranged. You claim LOS gives no job an advantage then detail how one job will lose potency because of it. You are once again contradicting your own arguments with your own words. If you don't think LOS issues and the fire hazards negatively affect range more than melee then i i'm sorry you do not grasp the basics of this game as well as you claim to.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

If you don't understand how basic geometry makes cover work asymmetrically, and are intent on putting up the same strawman (that ranged is "useless") in every single post, then you are not worth engaging with.

e: Wait, are you saying that the solution is to play Bard up front with the melee blob to avoid getting LoSed? That's incredible if so; I suggest you try it and see exactly how that goes, having no numerical defensive and a low hp pool. Unless you're immediately converting on a kill, playing forward gets you deleted - and it won't entirely stop people LoSing your cast bars anyway.

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Was this first sentence for me? If so my argument isn't that range is useless, just that the map sucks to be a ranged player on due to being at a disadvantage. Also i believe the geometry of cover favors melee overall but especially in this level. If this comment was not intended for me then oops, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Apeman

Was this first sentence for me?

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No.

10chars

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

If you don't understand how basic geometry makes cover work asymmetrically, and are intent on putting up the same strawman (that ranged is "useless") in every single post, then you are not worth engaging with.

e: Wait, are you saying that the solution is to play Bard up front with the melee blob to avoid getting LoSed? That's incredible if so; I suggest you try it and see exactly how that goes, having no numerical defensive and a low hp pool. Unless you're immediately converting on a kill, playing forward gets you deleted - and it won't entirely stop people LoSing your cast bars anyway.

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Cover doesn't work asymmetrically. Melee have to be next to you to deal damage. Moving to you means moving to your location, which is likely near a corner on VH. If you go around that corner, they either have to chase you around that corner - breaking LOS with their team - or they have to back off, at which point they are not dealing damage to you anymore. LOSing your teammates is generally a very bad idea in a game that moves as fast as CC, because it means you aren't getting healed or cleansed, aren't getting covered by the PLD, etc. Bard *alone* can easily force out Guard or Purify on a melee that chases them around a corner by simply binding or silencing them when they're out of LOS of their team, which turns them into a viable burst target.

You can't play VH the same as you play an open map like Palaistra or Cloud Nine, but that doesn't mean it disfavors Bard or ranged in general. That's a skill issue you're facing, not an actual problem with the game. Bard works just fine on VH.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Cover doesn't work asymmetrically. Melee have to be next to you to deal damage. Moving to you means moving to your location, which is likely near a corner on VH. If you go around that corner, they either have to chase you around that corner - breaking LOS with their team - or they have to back off, at which point they are not dealing damage to you anymore. LOSing your teammates is generally a very bad idea in a game that moves as fast as CC, because it means you aren't getting healed or cleansed, aren't getting covered by the PLD, etc. Bard *alone* can easily force out Guard or Purify on a melee that chases them around a corner by simply binding or silencing them when they're out of LOS of their team, which turns them into a viable burst target.

You can't play VH the same as you play an open map like Palaistra or Cloud Nine, but that doesn't mean it disfavors Bard or ranged in general. That's a skill issue you're facing, not an actual problem with the game. Bard works just fine on VH.

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If you honestly believe cover is not favorable to melee over range then you are simply incapable of logical reasoning. At this point i am convinced you are just trolling, effectively i must admit, but your your constant lack of critical thinking and constant contradiction of your own arguments can only lead me to this conclusion.

Well if we were to believe Gseperent and people believing range is either unaffected by being forced into melee combat or that los is not an issue while pillar dancing, i guess all the pvp hardcore players of world of warcraft as well as the many pvp dev designers of world of warcraft who dedicate their time to balancing arena who always put pillars and LOS to prevent range dominance are just outright wrong and wow pvp has been designing mmorpg games the wrong way the entire time even though WoW still has a bigger pvp playerbase than any other mmorpg.

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Originally Posted by Zachia

WoW still has a bigger pvp playerbase than any other mmorpg.

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Ironic considering how crap it is. Then again, McDonald's is the most popular restaurant in the world. Some people just like to play/eat crap I guess. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Sigma860

Ironic considering how crap it is. Then again, McDonald's is the most popular restaurant in the world. Some people just like to play/eat crap I guess. :confused:

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I only played wow vanilla and that was back in 2004/2005. I have no idea what it's like nowadays, but even though MMOs have evolved A LOT since the early days of wow, their pvp back then was still better than what we have today in FFXIV. At least in my opinion. And that is despite the fact that FFXIV does not have to deal with balancing abilities for pvp and pve simultaneously, which makes things so much easier for Sqenix. Oh, and they don't have to deal with any type of variation in skills/talents/gear either. All those are complicating factors which most MMOs have to deal with when balancing out their pvp that are completely absent in FFXIV.

Considering how much the devs in this game have their work cut out for them, I expected the pvp to ship in a much better condition. Instead, we got one small mode with three maps with some serious balancing issues - though I acknowledge balance improved quite a bit since then - and one old mode that was virtually abandoned. I don't think they spent a single second considering how the new pvp system would play out in a larger mode like FL.

I love this game and it gets many things just right, but honestly the pvp is not one of them. But here's hoping it will improve with time. May the 6.1 pvp be only one step in the journey.

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Originally Posted by Zachia

Well if we were to believe Gseperent and people believing range is either unaffected by being forced into melee combat or that los is not an issue while pillar dancing, i guess all the pvp hardcore players of world of warcraft as well as the many pvp dev designers of world of warcraft who dedicate their time to balancing arena who always put pillars and LOS to prevent range dominance are just outright wrong and wow pvp has been designing mmorpg games the wrong way the entire time even though WoW still has a bigger pvp playerbase than any other mmorpg.

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I'll just say that Machinist feels abysmal in volcanic heart due to the 'cast time' of its basic, gcd combo and the fact that you need follow up attacks to make wildfire effective. The other ranged job I play consistently is Scholar, and for scholar it's kind of a mixed bag. The walls constantly get in the way of your only real damaging ability, which is the dot spread. You cast the dot and then you can't follow up with deployment tactics because you lost LOS. And that's not a conscious effort by your target, it happens due to their natural map movement alone. On the other hand, it does make it somewhat easier to escape danger while self-healing, including from melee enemies. You can play around the pillars and cause melee pursuers to miss attacks. However, it's only logical that the map design harms more than anything else those ranged jobs with cast times and/or that need to chain follow up skills in order to deal real damage.

I would never, ever willingly play machinist in volcanic heart.