Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

If you never had Love in your Life, how could you know that there is more as just hate, boredom and other negative feelings. I thought that he would have liked it to go with us on Adventures. If you listen to him what he said in German and compare it to the English Version you will notice a big difference in all he said.

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No you don't understand, he's misunderstood. I can fix him! Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Personally, I want Zenos to come back because I want all those questions to be answered properly, not with him being dead/gone. For me personally, answers to those questions would be more impactful if he were still alive while I received them. And I also want him back because I want him to be properly developed. Either be given a redemption arc or be made into a proper anti-hero. I want a better resolution for him, I think he has potential to become more and he deserves better. I like to think that someone like Ishikawa could give him proper depth and make it make sense. I explained more in my first post on this thread why I want him back.

I do not want Zenos to be our foil, if anything, I'd want him to be our proper friend, after he goes through a proper, well-developed redemption arc. I wish I could have been given the choice to not fight him as well. I never wanted to fight him and felt no joy in that whole scene.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Of which he deserves neither. This is a character who harbored no qualms bringing wanton genocide to the entire known world, allowed his own people to be brutally murdered, tempered and oppressed all for his own selfish pursuit to fight our character. He has zero redeeming qualities nor does the story even attempt to showcase any. The whole body swap scene is essentially a not-so-subtle rape metaphor. And every scene prior practically screams "obsessed stalker." He is a vile and entirely unlikeable character... which may have worked if the writing surrounding his story wasn't extremely poor. He neither develops beyond these one-dimensional characteristics nor does he display the slightest bit of depth. His motivations are shallow—much like his character.

Redeeming him would be akin to Thanos suddenly deciding to be pals with the Avengers. Nevermind, he tried to dust the entire universe. He was just misunderstood!

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ForteNightshade basically said everything I wanted to say before I had a chance to post.

In order for a redemption arc to work, the character has to have redeeming qualities. Zenos does not have these. He was willing to usher in the Final Days and destroy the entire world for the sole purpose of making us “hungry enough” to want to fight him as we did at the end of Stormblood. Not to mention he got upset when he ran into us in Garlemald and we were focused on something far more important that giving him what he wanted. He’s a selfish individual with no redeeming qualities; and a redemption arc would be poor writing. And, frankly, an insult to Natsuko should she attempt it. She’s far better than that, as Shadowbringers showed us.

Any potential the writers were going to give him should have been given in 4.x. But they didn’t. They made him a boring and uninteresting “main antagonist” that a lot of people are fine to see gone. This send off was the best they could give him. Leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Personally, I want Zenos to come back because I want all those questions to be answered properly, not with him being dead/gone. For me personally, answers to those questions would be more impactful if he were still alive while I received them. And I also want him back because I want him to be properly developed. Either be given a redemption arc or be made into a proper anti-hero. I want a better resolution for him, I think he has potential to become more and he deserves better. I like to think that someone like Ishikawa could give him proper depth and make it make sense. I explained more in my first post on this thread why I want him back.

I do not want Zenos to be our foil, if anything, I'd want him to be our proper friend, after he goes through a proper, well-developed redemption arc. I wish I could have been given the choice to not fight him as well. I never wanted to fight him and felt no joy in that whole scene.

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Not every villain is an Emet-Selch, nor should they be. Zenos was properly developed. He stated his reason(s) clearly time and time again. This is who he is. A redemption arc wouldn't really work with his character, and I like him as is anyway. Zenos wanted the ending he got.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

He neither develops beyond these one-dimensional characteristics nor does he display the slightest bit of depth.

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While you're not wrong, he did develop ever so slightly. What Alisae said to him struck a chord. A lot of the things he did was in order to get the WoL's attention, but he finally realized that wouldn't work. And in the end, Zenos even gave WoL the option to reject his challenge. So he did change a little. It may seem insignificant, but to Zenos, that was his only joy in life, and ordinarily, he would stop at nothing to attain that joy. Yet despite how much this meant to him, he would have let the WoL walk away if they wanted to.

I'm not saying he should or should not be redeemed. I'm just saying he did develop to some (small) extent.

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Originally Posted by Senn

While you're not wrong, he did develop ever so slightly. What Alisae said to him struck a chord. A lot of the things he did was in order to get the WoL's attention, but he finally realized that wouldn't work. And in the end, Zenos even gave WoL the option to reject his challenge. So he did change a little. It may seem insignificant, but to Zenos, that was his only joy in life, and ordinarily, he would stop at nothing to attain that joy. Yet despite how much this meant to him, he would have let the WoL walk away if they wanted to.

I'm not saying he should or should not be redeemed. I'm just saying he did develop to some (small) extent.

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Except this was negated in that we can’t opt to just not fight him and leave him hanging out at the end of the universe for the rest of time immemorial. So the “choice” was an illusion and not much else. We never actually had one in the end.

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Originally Posted by Senn

What Alisae said to him struck a chord.

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Which might be why he died sounding a bit sad and unfulfilled, because she was right.

But then again, he's "died" before. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except this was negated in that we can’t opt to just not fight him and leave him hanging out at the end of the universe for the rest of time immemorial. So the “choice” was an illusion and not much else. We never actually had one in the end.

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I mean... Narrative-wise, Zenos did give the WoL a choice. Nothing was negated. Dialogue options don't normally change anything in ffxiv so why would it this time?

I'm pretty sure Zenos is one of those characters/products conceived by the marketing department to serve as a counterpart to Y'shtola in crossover games/media like Dissidia,etc. Unfortunately rather than making him an ultra edgy anime antagonist like Sephirot they made him more like that creepy guy at work that stands way too close to you in the elevator and says stuff like "Your hair smells nice" in creep like fashion. Probably sifts through your trash when no one is looking.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I mean... Narrative-wise, Zenos did give the WoL a choice. Nothing was negated. Dialogue options don't normally change anything in ffxiv so why would it this time?

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He had to give the WoL the choice. He wanted their attention; their all. He wanted the WoL to want to fight him. It's why Alisaie's words struck that cord with him. Forcing the fight wouldn't work.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I mean... Narrative-wise, Zenos did give the WoL a choice. Nothing was negated. Dialogue options don't normally change anything in ffxiv so why would it this time?

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Then the story completely negated the development you pointed out. What would be the point of the development? The point of the choice? You can’t say no—so the “development” led nowhere. Effectively undermining it.

It would been much better for the game to break away from the prior notion of choice not affecting the story. And would have probably helped what you’ve pointed out here. But the fact that it undermines it doesn’t help Zenos at all. It makes the entire thing worse, actually.