Emet-Selch *Major Spoilers*

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

As for siding with the "bad guy" or having large options like that, it really wouldn't work with XIV's story structure XIV is a single player story stuck in an MMO, you can have dynamic and huge story changing events in single player games as they're finite and have an ending where as in MMO's such decisions have to be accounted for going forward and every branch adds multitudes of workload to accommodate for, even in games like WoW while yes, you can be an "evil" class or one fuled by questionable means, you're still the "good guy" on the same story path os everyone else.

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Yeah I think WoW is a pretty bad example. The player character in WoW is barely a factor in the story (at least in the first 3 expansions that I played). Your weren't in the cutscenes and you weren't integral to the plot. That's a big price to pay to be a "bad guy" character.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

So, pretty much like G'raha Tia then? He had no qualms about killing all the people in the bad future to save the people in the past ....

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There's a difference between changing the past to save the future (in the vein of games like Chrono Trigger and FF XIII-2) than there is do destroying millions of existing lives to recreate the past in the present. The former changes the destiny of those not yet born. It's possible that many of the people who existed in one possible future will never exist, replaced by other lives that will exist in a better future instead, and it's possible that the same person will exist in that new future but living a better life. In the latter example, you're committing genocide to reconstruct the past.

I thought it might be interesting to have him show up as a sort of magical PTSD/stress echo for our player. In the sense that his creation magic lingers on, and what triggers breakdowns in our character is the mix of his memory, magic lingering on, and our own innate ability to interact with it going uncontrolled. Like if something very troubling happened to you that had a strong smell, and every time you smell that now it causes a physical reaction in you- now add magic to that which you can manipulate subconsciously in a lessor quality of course. Which gives it stronger feelings of life (but important to note it's not, it's just a higher form of mental turmoil). So his memory haunts us, fears and wants mixing with our own.

Personally had wanted to use this to weave in creation magic housing, like better Wild Star housing lol. Where we begin to awaken to using it, and our ability is mostly guided by the excess magic Emet Selch used himself that already exists - similar to the Demi-Bahamut concept. Where we might find Emet's city is attempting to preserve itself in an animalistic way, the magic reaching out and tugging our inner-workings (painfully and mindlessly) as it's the closest vaguest similarity to what it knows as a source and his magic (smell). Latching into our core keeps causing us trauma (like full on hearing and seeing things, perhaps to relate to those you want to protect like entering the crystal city to see it on fire even though it's just in your head), as the city desperately reaches out some of the magic could start to fall into chaos (something we can repair later). Attempting to give you the Emet experience, and bring some similarities to how he was while alive (but he's definitely dead, it's not him).

So in our attempt to stabilize the chaos it (we) creates his form, but it's really ourselves that guiding in basic use of creation, in reward of the quest we gain a small area of our own to manipulate like Wild Star housing (want mist back drop today, Goblet tomorrow, and Ascian on the weekend? Large yard, small yard, no yard, floating sky base? Sure- just collect and master the essence required). Although it could be more socket based (more memory friendly) like WoW's Garrisons, Dark Cloud, and many other games, or a more complex Doma reconstruction basically, but Wildstar housing would be the most pipe dream ideal lol. With again the scale/ability being significantly enhanced given the excess available materials in the area pre-allocated by a full power Ascian (so we're not masters in mere seconds, or perhaps ever- but given a huge headstart). Perhaps with the help of Cid and the fae soul people too, so it doesn't look like we're holding the whole city up on our own will. With the help of other people and also the trauma spirit of Emet I think it could also make an interesting beast tribe mechanic too (tokens can be used for a lot of unique weird things due to what we're discussing/considering, tokens in this case probably representing stabilized resource that's safe to use for other memories and creations as you've balanced the spiritual equation). Where you try to restore order to the magic by helping out parts of the city (different wards)- reconstructing wards and having discussions with Emet (yourself) as the memory from the magic blurs into your own memories. Opportunities to see hidden elements of the city that perhaps tell personal stories of the people that live there and of his own thoughts, like seeing scenes of him having to justify his own actions to himself and it not being an option to doubt himself anymore else he becomes unforgivable (how people tell themselves what it cost was totally worth it because if it wasn't then what they did was not valid, a visual "path to hell is paved with good intentions" / "to make an omelet you have to crack a few eggs").

Perhaps with a prideful bitter sweet thank you at the end of the 'beast tribe' (not a beast tribe obviously, I'm merely referring to the system itself of quests/dailies and such), as you've helped ensure he wont be forgotten and carry on his people's memory through your own will (as a vague/enhanced (more story focused) beast tribe you'll be caretaker of Eorzea's most magical memorial museum of history basically). Custodian of memories, guardian of Amaurot.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yeah I think WoW is a pretty bad example. The player character in WoW is barely a factor in the story (at least in the first 3 expansions that I played). Your weren't in the cutscenes and you weren't integral to the plot. That's a big price to pay to be a "bad guy" character.

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Oh yes, the Wol is so important to the story. Someone tells you to go kill something, you go kill something. no one tells you to kill the obvious enemy, you do nothing. The WoL is an idiot with no will of his/her own, kinda like the pawns in dragons dogma = if the arisen doesn't direct them, they are clumsy and stupid. There is only one thing the WoL is good at, killing things and not really even good at that when you need a "blessings" and an army of helpers to get anything done.
I can already imagine the beginning of the MSQ going something like, they send you to do all the work while they take a nap, laughing "HAH! what a mook".

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Originally Posted by wereotter

There's a difference between changing the past to save the future (in the vein of games like Chrono Trigger and FF XIII-2) than there is do destroying millions of existing lives to recreate the past in the present. The former changes the destiny of those not yet born. It's possible that many of the people who existed in one possible future will never exist, replaced by other lives that will exist in a better future instead, and it's possible that the same person will exist in that new future but living a better life. In the latter example, you're committing genocide to reconstruct the past.

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Yes and no, dont forget its not just changing who they are, all of em basically become gods. While im not saying youre right, you cant just say its wrong either in that context - maybe the future is even more doomed now, maybe becomming whole again would make the ppl happier?

Going by that logic give Emet the time machine and let him prevent everything, right at the creation of Hhydaelyn...

Either way, the one question that remains is, what became of future Emet?

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

Oh yes, the Wol is so important to the story. Someone tells you to go kill something, you go kill something. no one tells you to kill the obvious enemy, you do nothing. The WoL is an idiot with no will of his/her own, kinda like the pawns in dragons dogma = if the arisen doesn't direct them, they are clumsy and stupid. There is only one thing the WoL is good at, killing things and not really even good at that when you need a "blessings" and an army of helpers to get anything done.
I can already imagine the beginning of the MSQ going something like, they send you to do all the work while they take a nap, laughing "HAH! what a mook".

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At least the WoL ends up in the cutscenes. At least people talk to the WoL in cutscenes and holds some importance to the story, that's more than the player character gets in WoW, whose more of a background extra while the NPCs take center stage.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

The only reason we are trying to stop them is because *we* are tempered.
Given what happens when Hydaelyns tempered execute her imperatives... this won't end well.

I don't think it's ever been implied that anyone's broken out of the tempered state before, it's always talked about as a terminal condition.

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Could they go the route of us being tempered? Of course they could. Does it make sense with everything we know right now? No not really. We already have WoLs of the past that outright betrayed Hydealyn. We had Ardbert who raised his axe against the word of the mother and we have Hydealyns view through the song of answers. If she is tempering us then our tempering is really quite similiar to free will.

Also lets not forget that the Ascians are 100% tempered. ;)

I enjoyed this thread. It was so cool to see everyone's take on it :)

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Yes and no, dont forget its not just changing who they are, all of em basically become gods. While im not saying youre right, you cant just say its wrong either in that context - maybe the future is even more doomed now, maybe becomming whole again would make the ppl happier?

Going by that logic give Emet the time machine and let him prevent everything, right at the creation of Hhydaelyn...

Either way, the one question that remains is, what became of future Emet?

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If he went back to before Zodiarc was created, and managed to prevent the destruction we saw at the end of days in the Amourot dungeon, then I'd have been more sympathetic to him. But that's not his plan, so I have a hard time seeing him as anything other than a murderer.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

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1. Given that even Emet said he's been tempered it seems kind of silly to argue with him.

2. I really don't see anything about the Ascians that should make them less susceptible to tempering. Emet keeps saying they're better than others, but so far I'm not seeing any evidence beyond "they have more fuel", which isn't an argument for being better.

3. Elidbus is not the same thing as the other Ascians, even if we assume he isn't tempered.

4. Hydaelyn may be a Primal, but she hasn't ever tempered anyone that we know of. We have examples of supposedly tempered beings (other WoL) actively working against her continued survival after all.

5. The issue wasn't Zodiark as a permanent solution, it was that those who summoned him wanted to use him to sacrifice other life to bring back those who lost their life in his summoning. That's not a good guy goal. There isn't a story where the good guys go around killing hundreds of innocents in order to bring back their friend.

6. Obviously a story can be written multiple ways. But what's being proposed, again, is killing millions of people for the sake of a small number. There isn't any road there except villain/evil.