Physical range dps damage?

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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Truth.

Only 1 thing in Ramuh screws melee only over the 1st stratsphere summons which force you in a corner any other disconnect effects everyone.
I+G fight, firey football and Rappy\\' s prey charges particularly the last one that is combined with numeration.
Idol, laughs, maybe going from 1 add to another and IF unlucky with colours+meteors.
Shiva though will vary widely on the order she decides to things, if she does ins 1st, whether do ilya start or others, uptime knockback mirrors etc.

Even with those problems with melee, casters laugh because they have it mapped out because when to move will always happen at the same time it's just the where to that is random.

Honestly feels like physical range is meant to be the prog role that gets sidelined as fast as possible and the only countermeasure SE thought of was make it give 1% stat gain for existing.

Until there is a fight where physical range can actually make use of their 100% mobility it is a worthless boon that is weakening the role close to irrelevancy especially if SE keeps buffing casters's mobility every expansion.

The physical range need a buff either to their utility OR their personal damage but they need more than what they do currently and no they don't have to be equal to melees but 500 less rDPS below bottom melee should be the furthest behind they should be, that way good melees will still outperform physical range on equal skill level but if the melee/caster die then they can be overtaken but that no death physical range.

Seriously when an entire role can play perfectly and still not outperform compared to a player who dies on multiple other jobs within the Dps category, Balance is not there.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because we can dodge everything with no real danger involved. Melee is in constant danger of being hit, ranged isn't.

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The issue is even despite these inherent weaknesses, Melee still beat the Range in fights where they are heavily disadvantaged. In fact, lets look at E6S—arguably the most unfriendly melee fight in years.

Summoner - 16,911
Black Mage - 16,575
Ninja - 16,325
Samurai - 16,214
Red Mage - 16,005
Monk - 15,950
Dragoon - 15,917
Machinist - 15,857
Dancer - 15,422
Bard - 14,970

That is the spread at 95%. Bear in mind, Monk and, especially Dragoon, have no way to mitigate disengagement. Meditation is meager compensation for a GCD loss and Piercing Talon is so laughably weak, it's actually better for a Dragoon to do absolutely nothing in most cases. So a Dragoon literally not attacking at several points does more damage than an optimized Machinist, Bard or Dancer. Bard, in particular, is so far behind in E6S, it's bordering on useless. We could somewhat justify this if utility such as Refresh, Foe's and the like still existed. Instead, Range "support" is Troubadour and friends. Are they really so much better than Feint to justify such a massive difference?

Now lets look at E7S, where Melee downtime is basically non-existent. Dragoon jumps to over 1,400 more rDPS than Dancer; 1,100 over Bard, and 800 over Machinist. Meanwhile, you'll notice the Casters have essentially zero issues regardless of the fight design. If positionals and uptime are going to be an excuse then Melee should deal the highest damage since they stand to lose the most. That isn't the case as no matter the encounter, Summoner is significantly ahead all but Samurai.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

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This!

An argument could have been made around the concept that perhaps the skill floor for the ranged physical classes was such that at lower percentiles the ranged did higher dps than other classes at lower percentiles (because while everyone is learning positionals,placements,etc the ranged can still dps). This would place the ranged physical in a "good for newer players not so good for optimized play" But that's not even really true. The only place you see this is lower percentile MCH doing roughly as well as lower percentile BLM and this has more to do with BLM doing very little damage at lower percentiles than anything else. Once BLM learns placements that's enough for mch to fall behind again.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

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In regards to the E7S point, Bards have a huge advantage during add phase, where we can double dot 3 different enemies and maintain all for about the 2 minutes that the phase lasts, leading to drastically increased repertoire proc rates.

Even with this advantage, Bard STILL falls behind by a huge margin.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Oh look, another one of these threads. As it has been stated over and over again, Ranged Physical DPS has overall lower DPS due to mobility and utility. They literally have 100% uptime on damage over every other class because they have no cast time and can attack while moving/running while every body else is dodging AOE's/mechanics and losing DPS. Also they are the easiest to play in terms of difficulty which is another reason. Gear has no matter in this at all. It is all about the class/job, just like most other MMO's. It's not difficult to understand this.

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^THIS! It's funny how people say, 'Well I know that physical ranged can do this and that that other jobs can't, BUT... we should still be equal.' Um, NO... you shouldn't. I main MCH, and I'm fully OK with doing less damage because I can run around dodging attacks while at the same time continuing to deal out damage so basically we have no damage downtime. Casters have to interrupt their casts to dodge attacks and melee, well, they are in the thick of it all and not only have to worry about positionals but also constantly watching for point blank AoE attacks from bosses. My second job is NIN, so I understand melee difficulty quite well. If physical ranged were equal, then there would be no reason to play magic range or even melee... if you can stand in the back away from the boss doing constant damage while running all over the battlefield... honestly that idea is just downright silly. People need to accept that there is a trade-off for the job you pick... physical range have it the easiest of all the jobs... but MCH deserves to be highest of physical range DPS because they have very little utility. This is why I dropped DNC and picked up MCH... I want to do more DPS and not have to worry about buffing others. For those who WANT to be the utility player, then playing a lower DPS job like DNC and BRD are there for you.

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Originally Posted by ADarklore

^THIS! It's funny how people say, 'Well I know that physical ranged can do this and that that other jobs can't, BUT... we should still be equal.' Um, NO... you shouldn't. I main MCH, and I'm fully OK with doing less damage because I can run around dodging attacks while at the same time continuing to deal out damage so basically we have no damage downtime. Casters have to interrupt their casts to dodge attacks and melee, well, they are in the thick of it all and not only have to worry about positionals but also constantly watching for point blank AoE attacks from bosses. My second job is NIN, so I understand melee difficulty quite well. If physical ranged were equal, then there would be no reason to play magic range or even melee... if you can stand in the back away from the boss doing constant damage while running all over the battlefield... honestly that idea is just downright silly. People need to accept that there is a trade-off for the job you pick... physical range have it the easiest of all the jobs... but MCH deserves to be highest of physical range DPS because they have very little utility. This is why I dropped DNC and picked up MCH... I want to do more DPS and not have to worry about buffing others. For those who WANT to be the utility player, then playing a lower DPS job like DNC and BRD are there for you.

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Except nobody is asking the Range to deal equal damage to the Melee or Casters. They want enough to justify their existence beyond party bonus because as it stands right now, without said bonus, all three Range DPS would be complete dead weight in every single fight, including E6S and E8S which aren't Melee friendly. In fact, they're already reaching the point yet again where Black Mage and Summoner are so much stronger, the party bonus may not be enough. Look at the example I provided above. Summoner is dealing 1,100 more rDPS than Machinist; 2,000 more than Bard. And it's supposed to be the "middle ground" utility Caster. Worse even is Dragoon, who suffers more than any other DPS in E6S, still beats Machinist.

Basically, even with handicaps placed on them (cast interrupts or disengagement) both Melee, and especially Casters, come out ahead. E7S takes it a step further by outright removing positional requirements and making it so the tower mechanic is randomized. In other words, we have a fight where Range don't even get to utilize their free movement to bait mechanics and allow for melee uptime. Predictably, they are laughably behind every other job by nearly 1,000 rDPS or higher except Red Mage—which still beats Machinist. Light Rampant is another example of this same problem. Range cannot bait the mechanic, thus their mobility is no longer an asset. In these examples, they do less damage because reasons and little else.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Basically, even with handicaps placed on them (cast interrupts or disengagement) both Melee, and especially Casters, come out ahead. E7S takes it a step further by outright removing positional requirements and making it so the tower mechanic is randomized. In other words, we have a fight where Range don't even get to utilize their free movement to bait mechanics and allow for melee uptime. Predictably, they are laughably behind every other job by nearly 1,000 rDPS or higher except Red Mage—which still beats Machinist. Light Rampant is another example of this same problem. Range cannot bait the mechanic, thus their mobility is no longer an asset. In these examples, they do less damage because reasons and little else.

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I also want to add, statics will naturally come up with solutions to mechanics aimed at increasing melee and caster uptime. By obvious design, ranged don't benefit from this, so the gap will only widen as time goes on.

For example, one of my friends came up with this strategy for the color portals in E7S during the second half of the fight, normally a pug killer that could make things go sideways for melee and casters especially because the party is normally expected to split up to avoid overlapping AoEs. Except they figured out that the player marker AoEs actually don't do that much damage, and their strategy to stack the same color AoEs completely trivializes the mechanic. What was supposed to be the hardest mechanic for the second half of the fight turned into free uptime for nearly everyone, and now it's the standard strategy for most statics that know what they're doing.

https://clips.twitch.tv/HyperBoringSardineWholeWheat

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because we can dodge everything with no real danger involved. Melee is in constant danger of being hit, ranged isn't.

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I don't know why you say melee job is in constant danger when one doesn't have cast time, and have as much freedom of movement as physical range does.

On melee: High uptime is achievable as long as boss's aoe isn't on his foot.

On caster: High uptime is achievable with slide casting and instant spells.

No encounter is ever asking players to move all the time in order to dps. (If there's one, the GCD system will make the encounter impossible.)

Having 95% and having 100% mobility is literally the same in this game. Melee might have little bit harder time to keep dpsing when aoe happens in melee range, but high damage compensates the downtime. When all DPS players gets marked by aoes, the only difference between melee and physical range is the former dodging in melee distance, and the later dodging in range distance while caster may not be able to finish casting in time and have to completely stop dpsing.

Practically every melee job has a gap-closer and True North that alleviates the "melee disadvantage" and in such generous amounts, too. Positionals in general have also been trivialized.
All the casters also have new things that trivialize their disadvantage. Summoner outright feels like a physical ranged DPS at times.
Meanwhile, Physical ranged DPS got nothing and were also nerfed. The entire role lagging out from the rest is just blatant.

Point is though, melee and caster have to work for that uptime (or have tactics built around them).

I would argue that ranged has a lower skill ceiling, and can deal with some mechanics in a way that would cause a melee to lose uptime.

I guess its arguable how much of a dps difference those things are worth though.