As a dungeon runner...

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Originally Posted by linay

So, I'm guessing you were killing the enemies quickly? I mean, that seems to fit the nature of this game in terms of healing. If your group is doing well, healing isn't as needed. It doesn't make healers redundant as you still had to use those 5 healing abilities.

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That's the thing, I may have not even had to use those 5 healing abilities if mitigation and self-healing was used well. I think the run would have been more efficient if there was a RDM instead of a healer. Or just a PLD as tank and 3 dps, or even dancer with that aoe healing they got might have been enough.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure it could be easily done if there's a tank with decent self-healing (PLD/WAR) and 3 melee dps using bloodbath and second wind optimally

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Okay actually tanks kind of play like dps so might not be as noticable, play them as healer then. I did anti-tower as healer the other day and I litterally had to use maybe 5 healing abilities (oGCD/GCD) throughout the whole dungeon. Might even be fine if I didn't use those if self-healing was used well. This meant that I was litterally stuck spamming 1 dps button almost the whole dungeon without even having to time oGCDs because damage was so neglible.

If you start feel redundand as a healer in an instance, I'd consider the sync broken.

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So presumably you're saying that higher level players should be sync'd to the minimum level possible for realistically managing to clear the dungeon? People will love that ...

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Originally Posted by Elladie

So presumably you're saying that higher level players should be sync'd to the minimum level possible for realistically managing to clear the dungeon? People will love that ...

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Not minimum iLVL, just lower. Ala Migho dungeon for example is first lvl 70 dungeon and is much better synced, same for the latest 2-3 dungeons of each expansion that require highest iLVL. Many other instances aren't that bad either but there for sure are bunch that are terrible and you'll greatly notice it.

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Originally Posted by linay

If true, is there a reason why you think that's not the intended result? I think it makes sense since, even though you are synced, you are still technically higher level, so you should still be more powerful. And it also helps to make completing duties easier, which fits in with the use of dungeons in this game, as you've pointed out, to be done quickly as dailies or farming device.

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Well, I'm just pointing out that the reasoning of "We can't have full kits in sync'd content because we'd have to work harder for the same result as low level players" is flawed because in sync'd content we're already OP af compared to low level players due to how the sync functions.

It also goes against the philosophy that they use in terms of things like the unskippable cutscenes in the MSQ Roulette, which is for newer players to be able to "Have the experience as intended" which having other players skip the cutscenes and run forward and wipe out the entire dungeon before the first cutscene finishes doesn't adhere to.

Which also overlooks the point where due to level sync being kind of mediocre for actually bringing players down to a reasonable level, it means that new players still don't get an "Intended experience" because sync'd players just decimate everything anyway (Heck, all the "Bosses" in Praetorium/Castrum Meridianum die in less than 30 seconds. I don't even know if they even have mechanics because I've never seen them)

This can also extend into other duties, where new players can find themselves just running along trying to keep up with a party of sync's that are just zooming ahead nuking down everything before the newbie can do anything (I've seen it happen in some of the lower level duties). I've also seen some final bosses be killed before a newbie has finished watching its intro cutscene.

So, while maybe it's intentional to aid with allowing Duty grinding for high level players, whom just want quick runs. It goes against their premise for allowing new players to have the full experience of the duty.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

That's the thing, I may have not even had to use those 5 healing abilities if mitigation and self-healing was used well. I think the run would have been more efficient if there was a RDM instead of a healer. Or just a PLD as tank and 3 dps, or even dancer with that aoe healing they got might have been enough.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure it could be easily done if there's a tank with decent self-healing (PLD/WAR) and 3 melee dps using bloodbath and second wind optimally

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Except the role assignment isn't necessarily based on optimal performance, so you still need a healer. That said, there's a reason why role (and item level) restriction is removed when going in as a full pre-made party. So regardless of what you think you can get away with, this still doesn't mean the level sync is broken.

(Also, I don't think either Paladin or Red Mage or Dancer can heal those dungeons with level sync.)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Well, I'm just pointing out that the reasoning of "We can't have full kits in sync'd content because we'd have to work harder for the same result as low level players" is flawed because in sync'd content we're already OP af compared to low level players due to how the sync functions.

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It's not the same. It's one thing for your attacks to be stronger due to gear and level. That happens all the time. It's another for your attacks to be weaker due to having more abilities than is required at that level.

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It also goes against the philosophy that they use in terms of things like the unskippable cutscenes in the MSQ Roulette, which is for newer players to be able to "Have the experience as intended" which having other players skip the cutscenes and run forward and wipe out the entire dungeon before the first cutscene finishes doesn't adhere to.

Which also overlooks the point where due to level sync being kind of mediocre for actually bringing players down to a reasonable level, it means that new players still don't get an "Intended experience" because sync'd players just decimate everything anyway (Heck, all the "Bosses" in Praetorium/Castrum Meridianum die in less than 30 seconds. I don't even know if they even have mechanics because I've never seen them)

This can also extend into other duties, where new players can find themselves just running along trying to keep up with a party of sync's that are just zooming ahead nuking down everything before the newbie can do anything (I've seen it happen in some of the lower level duties). I've also seen some final bosses be killed before a newbie has finished watching its intro cutscene.

So, while maybe it's intentional to aid with allowing Duty grinding for high level players, whom just want quick runs. It goes against their premise for allowing new players to have the full experience of the duty.

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The "intended experience" is mainly regarding the story, not the combat, which can never have the original experience as they change the battle system over time.

And besides, for the most part, no one would notice if the healer is out-dps-ing the two DPS. You can look at enmity bar, but it's not certain unless you use a parser whether that's due to overhealing.

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Originally Posted by linay

It's not the same. It's one thing for your attacks to be stronger due to gear and level. That happens all the time. It's another for your attacks to be weaker due to having more abilities than is required at that level.

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Except, if you combine both, then you have people with larger skillsets that are also more powerful. Given that the premise of being stronger than others is seemingly not an issue (Though, it is an issue for BLU which many people, including Yoshida himself, mentioned would be too OP in parties and that's why it's a Limited Job)

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The "intended experience" is mainly regarding the story, not the combat, which can never have the original experience as they change the battle system over time.

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Except, literally the reason for the unskippable cutscenes in MSQ Roulette is so that people don't clear the entire dungeon while newbies are watching the cutscenes. Meaning, to allow them to see the combat.

Also, there's a difference between not being able to fully recreate the original experience because of job changes over time and sticking a big middle finger up to the entire premise of the "Duty" by allowing OP sync'd players completely destroy the place.

In fact, the latter also has been complained about by veteran players too, who wish to go back and do old content, but cannot do so because their only options are to use the crappy sync and be too OP for it to be any fun at all or to use the Minimum Item Level option which can have the opposite effect, making it too challenging to be fun.

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And besides, for the most part, no one would notice if the healer is out-dps-ing the two DPS. You can look at enmity bar, but it's not certain unless you use a parser whether that's due to overhealing.

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It can be quite easy to see in lower level dungeons. When people don't have AoE's and you see 2 DPS attacking one target and then the Healer attacking another and chunking away at its health with their Stone casts.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Except, if you combine both, then you have people with larger skillsets that are also more powerful. Given that the premise of being stronger than others is seemingly not an issue (Though, it is an issue for BLU which many people, including Yoshida himself, mentioned would be too OP in parties and that's why it's a Limited Job)



Except, literally the reason for the unskippable cutscenes in MSQ Roulette is so that people don't clear the entire dungeon while newbies are watching the cutscenes. Meaning, to allow them to see the combat.

Also, there's a difference between not being able to fully recreate the original experience because of job changes over time and sticking a big middle finger up to the entire premise of the "Duty" by allowing OP sync'd players completely destroy the place.

In fact, the latter also has been complained about by veteran players too, who wish to go back and do old content, but cannot do so because their only options are to use the crappy sync and be too OP for it to be any fun at all or to use the Minimum Item Level option which can have the opposite effect, making it too challenging to be fun.



It can be quite easy to see in lower level dungeons. When people don't have AoE's and you see 2 DPS attacking one target and then the Healer attacking another and chunking away at its health with their Stone casts.

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I still don't see a problem with the current implementation of the level sync. It makes dungeons easier, but when I was leveling up, I did not feel out of place regardless of whether I was grouped with people higher level to me or not.

And yes, if you pay attention, you can notice certain things, but would that be the majority's concern? I don't think so.

And as for the cutscene skipping issue, yes it is about seeing the combat, but not about how the combat is done. The combat will still be easier, but you can still see it as part of the story.

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Originally Posted by linay

I still don't see a problem with the current implementation of the level sync. It makes dungeons easier, but when I was leveling up, I did not feel out of place regardless of whether I was grouped with people higher level to me or not.

And yes, if you pay attention, you can notice certain things, but would that be the majority's concern? I don't think so.

And as for the cutscene skipping issue, yes it is about seeing the combat, but not about how the combat is done. The combat will still be easier, but you can still see it as part of the story.

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There may not be a problem with it, but don't you just think the vast majority of players will enjoy content better if it poses at least a decent amount of challenge, something that isn't too far off of what was intended at release?

Since they decided to only release one 4 man dungeon I would have hoped it was unique but its same thing and bosses who is barely a challenge. I really enjoyed Bardam Mettle boss mechanics where you did not even need to fight but just complete the challenges.

Can\\'t we have more boss fight where you need to memorize the cards or which mug has the coin? And if its 2 wrong you die. Even ivalice math boss was fun, you don\\'t need raw strenght but mind. I want 4 man dungeons to feel like an adventure with picking the right puzzle leads to no mobs appearing like temple of quarn, I want the run to feel different and unique.

I don\\'t mind getting only one 4 man dungeon but I want the dungeon to still feel interesting after many runs. The very new 5.2 one we got was probably the most dissappointing one for me.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

There may not be a problem with it, but don't you just think the vast majority of players will enjoy content better if it poses at least a decent amount of challenge, something that isn't too far off of what was intended at release?

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I know the vast majority of players won't enjoy it better. MMO history teaches us that.

If the vast majority of players wanted content to remain more challenging, that's how MMOs would have been getting designed to retain more players.

Most people aren't playing for challenge. They're playing to relax, perhaps to destress at the end of a long day or a rough week where they were dealing with real life challenges. In a game like FFXIV that's so heavily story focused, they're usually playing to casually enjoy the story. They might dip their toes into the challenge pool on occasion but they don't want it to be a frequent component of their game time.