Dancer Flourish is badly designed and not actually enjoyable to use

I have no idea how the thread degenerated beyond its scope of "Flourish's design is flawed", but personally it's not really Flourish's design that's flawed but rather the dead time in-between cooldowns whether it's because they're on cooldown or if you're not at a level that has Flourish available. I think Dancer right now is really well designed minus maybe the Steps being heavily cooldown reliant but SkS brings it down a fair bit. The proc system ties rather nicely into your GCD consideration to the point where I think there should be a timer visible for when your combo expires (e.g Fountain).

Given the focus on cooldowns I feel like the design follow-ups on Dancer should be related to its GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Animadragon

I have no idea how the thread degenerated beyond its scope of "Flourish's design is flawed", but personally it's not really Flourish's design that's flawed but rather the dead time in-between cooldowns whether it's because they're on cooldown or if you're not at a level that has Flourish available. I think Dancer right now is really well designed minus maybe the Steps being heavily cooldown reliant but SkS brings it down a fair bit. The proc system ties rather nicely into your GCD consideration to the point where I think there should be a timer visible for when your combo expires (e.g Fountain).

Given the focus on cooldowns I feel like the design follow-ups on Dancer should be related to its GCDs.

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I wouldn't mind more forced procs except for feathers. Not a full 4 feathers, that would lead to a lot of overflow, but just like 2 at a time. Would make Dancer feels a lot faster paced with more feathers in its hat, pun intended.

#SDoGCDpls

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Originally Posted by Neela

#SDoGCDpls

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I stand by what I said regarding this. They take Saber Dance off the GCD and I'll have nothing else to ask for, forever.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

no role will ever be perfectly balanced

you balance the ranged role from the top (so samurai right now) and take say 3% from that. at this point the weakest class would still be 5-6% short of the top even if the role in itself gets closer together (so a good ~800 dps) which would end up in a situation where (lets just say the relative strength within the group stays as is) bard would be where mch is now, which generally is seen as the "strongest of the most definitely still pretty weak" group, so way better than now, but still not a position a class should be in, whereas mch would allready reach the point where the people that now argue no one would ever take a second melee if theres any chance would cry about mch making ninja obsolete because on one out of 4 fights mch actually deals 20 dps more than nin on the 95% percentile.

if you generally agree they need to be taxed on a level where even on a heavy movement fight they lose out to melees than at least part of that role will allways end up at a level that is in fact very much underpowered, yet this notion was bought forward more than once, and (again, taking the whole picture, i.e. this thread into account) as you not once disagreed with that side but only picked apart any tiniest detail of people saying the role is too weak in general even if you agreed they are too weak as is than this is something which i at least would say is something to argue about, after all the whole idea of a forum aside from collecting and sharing ideas is to actually exchange arguments. So yes, i very much argue that even if its just bard that falls short it indeed is a role issue that makes this happen.

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>Tax for movement being ranged

> Fights no longer have Windows of melee dps stopping and they have similar, decent mobility

>optimal strats are all uptime strats where movement is minimal

>claims were taxed for our kits, when classes with better support skills aren't taxed as highly

Are you absolutely sure youre a DNC player because the more I read from you the more Im like.... Nobody can be that blind to the performance gaps.. Nobody can be that deliberately ignorant about DNC damage being broken down into phases (Burst/Waiting/Building, you didn't want to hear me out, you just assumed I was doing it wrong so I let you go with it, I parsed 65 percentile at i453 so ya know.. )

Nobody can believe the power budget we have is remotely correct. I'm beginning to think you arent a DNC at all.

Tiny rant: I hate that DNC is such a bandwagon job. I get in raids with 3 dancers, it's like come on.. this gonna be slow -.-.

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Originally Posted by Animadragon

I have no idea how the thread degenerated beyond its scope of "Flourish's design is flawed", but personally it's not really Flourish's design that's flawed but rather the dead time in-between cooldowns whether it's because they're on cooldown or if you're not at a level that has Flourish available. I think Dancer right now is really well designed minus maybe the Steps being heavily cooldown reliant but SkS brings it down a fair bit. The proc system ties rather nicely into your GCD consideration to the point where I think there should be a timer visible for when your combo expires (e.g Fountain).

Given the focus on cooldowns I feel like the design follow-ups on Dancer should be related to its GCDs.

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Skill speed is bad for DNC though.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

Tiny rant: I hate that DNC is such a bandwagon job. I get in raids with 3 dancers, it's like come on.. this gonna be slow -.-.


Skill speed is bad for DNC though.

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I hear ya there, scales so poorly and messes with your rotation timings too much, far better w Crit > Det > D.Hit. Only using skill speed myself at the moment while I upgrade some pieces of armour and do some fine tuning.

I think DNC is bandwagon mainly because like GBR they're pretty new and new players pick them up since it's a dps that starts at 60, as people realise they're undertuned they drop them and buy a boost for the latest fotm (SMNs literally everywhere now) I like that they're semi popular as it gives more opportunity for feedback on tuning the class to a better state.

Truth be told, I honestly don't think they're in the gutter, need a full rework omfg bad, there's no a single class in that state any more, but with the mentality around Savage/Ultimate we do need some fine tuning as that 3k gap between DNC/BRD and the rest of the pack is very noticeable in the uptime strat meta. Why I wanted Flourish to get the RDM accelerate treatment as I do think that would really help bridge the gap, I also like the Sabre Dance coming off GCD suggestion as that would help immensely with our build up phase of our rotation.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

>Tax for movement being ranged

> Fights no longer have Windows of melee dps stopping and they have similar, decent mobility

>optimal strats are all uptime strats where movement is minimal

>claims were taxed for our kits, when classes with better support skills aren't taxed as highly

Are you absolutely sure youre a DNC player because the more I read from you the more Im like.... Nobody can be that blind to the performance gaps.. Nobody can be that deliberately ignorant about DNC damage being broken down into phases (Burst/Waiting/Building, you didn't want to hear me out, you just assumed I was doing it wrong so I let you go with it, I parsed 65 percentile at i453 so ya know.. )

Nobody can believe the power budget we have is remotely correct. I'm beginning to think you arent a DNC at all.

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while i in fact are no dancer what was argued here in my case was ranged dps as a whole, also i have to somewhat doubt your reading comprehension here.

I'll admit i tend to go around things somewhat convuluted but what i stated here was literally (taking my whole argument aswell as not ignoring who i quoted) IF you do what you quoted me on you cant tax them in the way currently done because no matter how you do it they will allways at the very best end up at the edge of "one small missstep and at least part of the role risks becoming obsolete, doesn't matter if its bard/dancer or machinist. , also i wasn't the one saying you did anything wrong ?

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

while i in fact are no dancer what was argued here in my case was ranged dps as a whole, also i have to somewhat doubt your reading comprehension here.

I'll admit i tend to go around things somewhat convuluted but what i stated here was literally (taking my whole argument aswell as not ignoring who i quoted) IF you do what you quoted me on you cant tax them in the way currently done because no matter how you do it they will allways at the very best end up at the edge of "one small missstep and at least part of the role risks becoming obsolete, doesn't matter if its bard/dancer or machinist. , also i wasn't the one saying you did anything wrong ?

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Caught the wrong quote there, apologies, was meant for the two that have spent half the thread sneering/acting like we should be 3k behind the rest of the pack with their half evidence (presenting the top ends dps numbers while ignoring the glaring obvious of how far the phys ranged dps numbers are behind)

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

I hear ya there, scales so poorly and messes with your rotation timings too much, far better w Crit > Det > D.Hit. Only using skill speed myself at the moment while I upgrade some pieces of armour and do some fine tuning.

I think DNC is bandwagon mainly because like GBR they're pretty new and new players pick them up since it's a dps that starts at 60, as people realise they're undertuned they drop them and buy a boost for the latest fotm (SMNs literally everywhere now) I like that they're semi popular as it gives more opportunity for feedback on tuning the class to a better state.

Truth be told, I honestly don't think they're in the gutter, need a full rework omfg bad, there's no a single class in that state any more, but with the mentality around Savage/Ultimate we do need some fine tuning as that 3k gap between DNC/BRD and the rest of the pack is very noticeable in the uptime strat meta. Why I wanted Flourish to get the RDM accelerate treatment as I do think that would really help bridge the gap, I also like the Sabre Dance coming off GCD suggestion as that would help immensely with our build up phase of our rotation.

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Not to mention make the job feel a lot more fast paced between Fan Dance phases. Much as I love playing Dancer, when you're building up feathers, it can seem to be very dull with nothing filling those oGCD slots.

The only problem with moving Sabre Dance off the GCD is Flourish phases. By the time we get to that point, often we have 3 or 4 feathers waiting to be used, with additional procs happening as we use our Flourishing attacks; our plate becomes very full and it would be hard to fit SD in there. It becomes even more of a problem during Tech Dance when we get even more Esprit. Perhaps SD could fill in the gap if you don't get a FD3 proc, but even then, you would have to worry about clipping and rolling the dice anyways.

This isn't to say that moving SD off the GCD is a bad idea, but it's good to consider the cons as well as the pros. In this case, it would improve our sustained damage at the cost of our burst.