5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

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Originally Posted by Satarn

It's kinda funny how a similar thing was an issue with SB DRK - they removed parry procs, Darkside drain, single target Passenger and filled the apm gap with "moar Dark Arts". Although SB at least had the decency to introduce some new mechanics through second resource interacting with MP and TBN, while SHB added... a fancy dot on 2 minute cd.

Inb4 6.0 DRK removes Bloodspiller because "too much BS spam" and all we're left with is gonna be 123 combo and Edge of Shadow. De-evolution at its finest.

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Lack of innovation, more and more simplified mechanics until the complete removal, reduction of the interactivity betwen skills/own mechanics until are non-existent, poor integration of even more simplified version of mechanics that are present on other jobs like 1 expansions older in a way that are complety independent of the little mechanics the job still have, lost of the resource management and speed identity of the job that has been there since the release and the addition of a complete useless new gauge this expansion, a 10/10 rework.

The best part is not about a lack of originality since the job has been unique and tons of fun back on HW but they obsesion to strip off everything that make it unique and slowly turning it in to a WAR with a big sword, i don't think they are gonna remove bloodspiller, if they don't change the direction of the job and make it have his own path of evolution it should have since HW it's pretty obvious they next step will be consolidate WAR and DRK in to a single job, it's pretty clear, but i hope i wrong and they do something to at least improve the gameplay on 5.2 for once.

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Originally Posted by shao32

it's pretty obvious they next step will be consolidate WAR and DRK in to a single job

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You know, I wouldn't even be so upset if they literally did that, but made that "dark warrior" job actually engaging and fun - but right now we've got two "separate" jobs and they're both a joke compared to their past iterations. If at least GNB they added was some revolutionary design, but as it stands it is merely "the most bearable of the bunch". What an accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

You know, I wouldn't even be so upset if they literally did that, but made that "dark warrior" job actually engaging and fun - but right now we've got two "separate" jobs and they're both a joke compared to their past iterations. If at least GNB they added was some revolutionary design, but as it stands it is merely "the most bearable of the bunch". What an accomplishment.

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I will say it, if it wasn't for GNB i would become full SAM main and abandom the role for a while, the tank role decadency despite the nice necesary changes we get this expansion aren't enough to justified the bad Gameplay desing of half of the tanks, and even that i sometimes take DRK and spend some time with to the dummy or anyplace bcs i miss It so much to just feel a huge ugh of his mediocre Gameplay.

I feel that while delirium having a completely unoriginal design is part of what makes DRK feel like it lacks an identity right now, the biggest problem with the class remains that you spend 80 seconds between each Delirium mostly spamming your 123 combo with occasional Bloodspillers, creating a rotation that feels empty. The recent changes to Ninja's Shadow Fang and the existence of Sonic Break shows that SE isn't opposed to the existence of single button DoT skills anymore, so long as they follow the new design of being a single gcd with its own cooldown, so frankly, bringing back Scourge as a DoT skill with a 30 second cooldown would give at least one more thing to do in the lengthy periods of downtime that DRK's rotation suffers from.

Delirium being Bloodspiller spam can remain in my opinion, but I'd prefer if it was a 60 second cooldown that only lasts 6 seconds (like its PVP version) so you can only do 3 bloodspillers during it and it doesn't feel like such a focal point of the rotation and instead just acts as something to occasionally break up the Souleater spam and Scourge maintenance. I'd also change Blood Weapon to have a lower cooldown (40-45s) and work similarly to how Bunshin does on NIN now, so that instead of being a tight timed phase, it just gives you 5 stacks of Blood Weapon that are consumed when you land a weaponskill or spell and give you MP and Blood, which would also solve the fact that it's almost impossible to get all 5 blood weapon hits in when AoEing.

These changes would likely make Dark Knight more interesting to play and give it a gameplay pace that isn't completely identical to Warrior without requiring a complete overhaul of the entire class (which we're likely only getting in two years). Square Enix is probably not going to change the class mid-expansion to have the high skill cap it had in Heavensward since it seems their idea of "complex, fast tank" right now is Gunbreaker, but I still feel Dark Knight needs a few more changes to make it feel distinct. Warrior needs changes too, but I'm not super sure what I'd do with that class.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

I feel that while delirium having a completely unoriginal design is part of what makes DRK feel like it lacks an identity right now, the biggest problem with the class remains that you spend 80 seconds between each Delirium mostly spamming your 123 combo with occasional Bloodspillers, creating a rotation that feels empty.

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I wonder if there's a way we could rework Bloodweapon to feel like it's not just 'hit on CD and, as always, don't overcap'. There have been suggestions that look at making Darkside an actual mechanic; perhaps we can work from that and a drain-based Blood Weapon that would take significant know-how to optimize (though I can't imagine how that would work off the top of my head), and thus sustain engagement across a longer period of time and keep the lull period short enough to feel instead like prep for the especially-engaged period?

So far, DRK's only saving grace is MP banking (including via TBN's DA proc) for raid buffs. It has virtually zero (internal) synergies of its own. Bringing those back insofar as specifically makes enjoyable gameplay loops will probably be the key to giving it back some of its old joy.

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Originally Posted by shao32

sounds interesting but it have a small problem, both versions will lock DRK on the MT spot to enjoy those juicy dps buffs to archive his optimal dps so i don't see it working saddly, but overall interesting conceps, i like the first one more as a small defensive buff to pair with the mains ones without the dps buff but even that seems hard to make it work.

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I think my second suggestion doesn't push DRK into an MT spot, since it doesn't matter if the TBN is casted on the DRK, or the other tank; The TBN just needs to break.

Imo, it would introduce a high risk, high reward playstyle to the job, as the DRK needs to balance vuln up stacks and TBN usage. If they can push it until just the end, then they're rewarded with a high devastating blow, or they can blow it during a TA window.

This would also kinda emulate the "use your own hp as attacks" part of being a Dark knight by taking more damage the more you bank Nemesis.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I think my second suggestion doesn't push DRK into an MT spot, since it doesn't matter if the TBN is casted on the DRK, or the other tank; The TBN just needs to break.

Imo, it would introduce a high risk, high reward playstyle to the job, as the DRK needs to balance vuln up stacks and TBN usage. If they can push it until just the end, then they're rewarded with a high devastating blow, or they can blow it during a TA window.

This would also kinda emulate the "use your own hp as attacks" part of being a Dark knight by taking more damage the more you bank Nemesis.

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True, it will push you to the OT spot depending of the strentgh of the vuln stacks to get the biggest amount of stacks without risk.
then is the problem with TBN, it's almost a OP skill right now and it's really hard to break outside of TB an certain situations so DRK can't rely on get a big chunk of DPS coming from it, assuming TBN remains the same with the addition of you suggestion then edge/flood need to be nerfed and each stack of vuln should be equal to the potency nerfed to keep TBN dps neutral otherwise his usage will be affected.

In resume this proposal remember me to much to shoha from SAM, get stacks and release a powerful attack buy the stacks make you vulnerable, considering we already have edge/flood being a copy paste of shinten/kyuten and our MP bar is basically the kenki bar, I'm not really against it but DRK need to have his own identity instead of having copy pasted mechanics from other jobs everywhere.

I was thinking could they make it more interesting by turning it into the "free GCD" mode with 4 charges for all GCD giving them same damage with extra different effect on each, with a limit to use the same GCD skill two times only.
All single target GCD would have 600 potency and extra effects of:
Souleater could heal us for 1200 potency per use
Hard slash apply a 30 potency DOT for 20 seconds
Using bloodspiller reduce cooldown of blood weapon by 5 seconds per use, after using it two times it would give us another stack of delirium
Syphon strike gives 600 MP per use
Unmend could give us free stack of Plunge, but only if we dont have target in melee range and only one time.

All aoe GCD could have 230 potency with following effects:
Quietus same as bloodspiller grant 1 extra stack to use after 2 times used and reduce the cooldown of blood weapon by 5 sec per use.
Stalwart soul could give 600 MP per use
Unleash heal 1200 potency per use

That would make it more interesting than gnashing fang combo imo.

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Originally Posted by shao32

True, it will push you to the OT spot depending of the strentgh of the vuln stacks to get the biggest amount of stacks without risk.
then is the problem with TBN, it's almost a OP skill right now and it's really hard to break outside of TB an certain situations so DRK can't rely on get a big chunk of DPS coming from it, assuming TBN remains the same with the addition of you suggestion then edge/flood need to be nerfed and each stack of vuln should be equal to the potency nerfed to keep TBN dps neutral otherwise his usage will be affected.

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And there lies the decision making. Are you going to use TBN and risk not popping it for the more dps gain? Or are you going with the safer option of using edge/flood to be consistent.
This will raise the skill ceiling of DRK by a bit imo. The better DRKs would be encouraged to try and break TBN without dying himself, so this maybe something like standing in aoes themselves with TBN on aside from using TBN on tankbusters for the OT and MT.

If you go for the dps gain, and it doesn't break, then you just lost a Flood/ Edge.
If you go for consistency, you might lose a meaty dps gain.
The choice is up to the individual player.

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Originally Posted by shao32

In resume this proposal remember me to much to shoha from SAM, get stacks and release a powerful attack buy the stacks make you vulnerable, considering we already have edge/flood being a copy paste of shinten/kyuten and our MP bar is basically the kenki bar, I'm not really against it but DRK need to have his own identity instead of having copy pasted mechanics from other jobs everywhere.

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It's different from SAM. Shoha has a cap, and is a button to weave into every 3 iajutsus.
Mana is a resource so it makes sense that it has similarities to Kenki, which is also a resource, as well as how PLD's Gauge is as well.
Nemesis demands decision making from the DRK, since in theory, the DRK can stack up to how many Nemesis stacks he wants, and he will be rewarded accordingly.
There's really no balance/thinking to the way Shoha is for SAM. You just press it everytime it comes up, whether or not it's under raid buffs.

IMO, it's quite alright to built off base mechanics like resource management, ogcds and combos and the like.
What's important is how can we build something that has a unique playstyle from those mechanics.

IMO, my suggestion will make DRK a high risk and high reward tank.
If you get too squishy, the healers will have more work to do, and you might not be able to survive heavy hitting attacks even with mitigation.
If you master it and can grab as much Nemesis as possible without dying to tankbusters or party busters, then you're going to be rewarded.

I still say all of DRK should have a rework from the ground up similar to MCH. Make it an MP zerker. Above 50% MP gives you more support/utility functionality, while being below 50% gives you more selfish dps options. That way it still keeps the MP management idea but actually makes it unique and interesting to manage. Your party is suffering? Build up your mana and provide shields/health to them through your carnage done. Think your party is fine for the next minute or so? Give into your bloodlust and have health steals and higher damage potency for yourself for a bit that let's you build up your mana again to allow you to return to the former supportive mode. Something akin to you can dps all you want, but the option to be a good tank will always exist so long as you want to do it. That results in the "but muh dps" mindset I'm sure but if your party and healers dies, then it creates the same feeling as any other tank... your dps is important but protecting your party is more important. Again, that's just me and I feel like it'd be more interesting than what we have now.... And we could potentially get the scourge animation back >_>;