Tales from the Shadows

A key thing I think a lot of people are missing from the whole time travel thing is the enormity of resources required to make it work. It took generations of Ironworks engineers, with the final president being the 18th (so 17 additional presidents following Garlond's death). Now, maybe those presidents all died prematurely - and it's a safe bet to assume that at least a few did so given how bad the world was - but even if they only averaged 10 years in the position, that's still 180 years of work dedicated to an incredibly long shot. Furthermore, we don't know exactly how much was needed from Alex/Omega to make all this work. Sure, G'raha took the CT with him, and there's loads of Ironworks tech in there, but there's nothing (yet) to say that they sent along another batch of timey-wimey rifty-wifty shenanigans that we could use in case of emergency. They likely wouldn't have wanted to, knowing what they know about the Ascians and the potential for interference; why run the risk of gifting your enemy the very means by which he may triumph over you?

In short, I think this was a one-time deal, and the writers have given themselves a lot of room to ensure that it stays a one-time deal.

I'm really hoping it's a one time deal, that last time travel discussion gave me a headache.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I'm really hoping it's a one time deal, that last time travel discussion gave me a headache.

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Thing at the center of the earth that was not dealt with with a terrifying cry. We're about 1 Epoch away from Lavos and I for one welcome Chrono Trigger.

On the topic of the Ascians having "failed" in the Dark Future timeline, I tend to think not. While we know that Ascians can make mistakes, it's pretty likely they'd err on the side of caution when it comes to the Source itself. Emet-Selch was aware of the properties of Black Rose, and seven times familiar with the amplification of devastation a Rejoining brings, and didn't seem even remotely worried. Not even a hint of, "Eh, we should be cautious in its deployment" or anything like that. And when he learned that the Crystal Exarch had come from such a Dark Future, he wasn't even REMOTELY interested in discovering WHY the guy had come back, just that he was able. He was completely confident that the Dark Future was one the Ascians didn't need to be worried about.

It's been my theory for a while now, that the sacrifice the Ascians wish to make of life on the Source to bring back their comrades can be fulfilled just by having an intact Lifestream. Actual plants, animals, and people aren't necessary to that goal at all, so long as their Aether is in the Lifestream - and even if Light-stilled Aether is unusable as a sacrifice (this is unclear - we know it's unusable for a Rejoining, but we don't know whether it's unusable for a sacrifice to Zodiark), plenty were dying from violence and starvation, rather than Black Rose, and would have wound up in the Lifestream instead.

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Originally Posted by Quor

In short, I think this was a one-time deal, and the writers have given themselves a lot of room to ensure that it stays a one-time deal.

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Oh, I very much agree that it will probably be a one-time deal. The thing is, though, now that we know that it's possible, WHY is it a one-time deal? Especially for the Ascians? This is what makes it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. FFXIV is now a world where traveling to the past and altering history is something that's possible. It may be difficult, but that is irrelevant, especially when immortal beings are involved. Anything that can be one once can be done a second time. ANYTHING. One-shot components can be rebuilt. Lost technology can be rediscovered.

The writers don't seem to understand just what "immortal" really means. Immortal means that Elidibus could REBUILD the Crystal Tower AND Alexander AND Omega, by hand, out of Popsicle sticks and duct tape, and cobble them together into a new time machine, over a period of countless eons. He has the time! However unlikely an event might be, when you approach infinity the odds of it happening (or happening twice) approach 100%.

It would have been far better to keep the entire concept of being able to change the past an impossibility. They should have kept to the same time travel philosophy they used for Alexander: when you return to the past, the best you can do is participate to help bring about events that have already happened, with those events having an unchanged outcome.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Oh, I very much agree that [time travel] will probably be a one-time deal. The thing is, though, now that we know that it's possible, WHY is it a one-time deal? Especially for the Ascians? This is what makes it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. FFXIV is now a world where traveling to the past and altering history is something that's possible. It may be difficult, but that is irrelevant, especially when immortal beings are involved. Anything that can be one once can be done a second time. ANYTHING. One-shot components can be rebuilt. Lost technology can be rediscovered.

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Here's a curious thought I had earlier today - if the Ascians got their hands on a time machine, what would they actually do with it? And what would be the consequences for the present timeline?

I think it's possible it wouldn't change anything at all for us.

Consider the effects of the timeline alteration in Shadowbringers, assuming it is complete. Someone from the "undesired future" travels back in time to a point where it could be averted, and changes it. Their original timeline may still exist, unaffected by the alternate reality that has been created, unable to be erased without destroying the changes that led to the split in the first place.

So suppose one of the Ascians acquires a time machine. Where would they go? Straight back to Amaurot to prevent Hydaelyn's summoning. They succeed, and their original plans are carried out unopposed. All that was wrong has been undone, and they are at home in their beloved city once more.

And yet... the ability to do so relies on our timeline. If the 'dark future' remains in existence, then by the same logic the Ascians' "averted" Sundering remains in existence too.

We probably wouldn't even notice it happened.

Or they go back in time yet cant stop Hydaelyn from being summoned but they can end up causing her to be imprisoned on the moon instead of zodiark. All the while they are slowly culling the planet of life forms to sacrifice to him ,cause I mean after all he's a primal, and our character and others are doing all they can to free her from said imprisonment and the mortals, (what's left of them if any) are living in a constant state of fear of when the next batch of killing is going to happen.

How's that for a branching time line lol?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Black Rose affected the entire world as the Tales says, due to "cascading environmental repercussions". Garlemald specifically had their ceruleum go inert, which would probably be about as serious to them as if every bit of fossil fuel suddenly gave no more energy for us. This is on top of crops failing and mutating due to Black Rose, which spread across the world.

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I feel like people are missing what I was saying. Black Rose, as I understand it, could not have been spread all over the world. The effects of it, sure, to a limited degree, but the actual thing, no. Unless it turns out there's some sort of immunity to it, any area it touched would be basically lifeless at best. The area being a focal point of a spreading appears to be true, but if the imbalance caused that much issue, I would have thought the Burn would have caused similar issues just by existing. Eorzea was probably for the most part wrecked, but going further afield, the main issue would be people fleeing Eorzea and trying to take over the supplies of where ever they went. And we know people were still in Eorzea after Black Rose hit, we see an Echo of people in Ishgard.

In regards to time travel, could the old timeline basically have ceased to continue the moment the Exarch went back? Everything leading up to that point would have had to happen to fix things, but anything afterwards just...Ends. There's a phrase for this, but I can't recall it offhand.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

On the topic of the Ascians having "failed" in the Dark Future timeline, I tend to think not. While we know that Ascians can make mistakes, it's pretty likely they'd err on the side of caution when it comes to the Source itself. Emet-Selch was aware of the properties of Black Rose, and seven times familiar with the amplification of devastation a Rejoining brings, and didn't seem even remotely worried. Not even a hint of, "Eh, we should be cautious in its deployment" or anything like that. And when he learned that the Crystal Exarch had come from such a Dark Future, he wasn't even REMOTELY interested in discovering WHY the guy had come back, just that he was able. He was completely confident that the Dark Future was one the Ascians didn't need to be worried about.

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Didnt he kinda wonder (at least in the german version) what would happen if Black Rose was powered up by the light? They are not perfect people and can make mistakes. I mean the crystal tower was probably something Emet helped building and even he did not understand its massive hidden power and something like Black rose seemingly did not exist before that.

Anyways having a weapon deployed that turns the soil and other things bad does not sound like such a good idea. Its already enough that the calamities changed the landscape that much, but turning something into a death place where even future generations cant built on? That sounds like a terrible idea, especially since they still wanted to use the source as their new home later.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And yet... the ability to do so relies on our timeline. If the 'dark future' remains in existence, then by the same logic the Ascians' "averted" Sundering remains in existence too.

We probably wouldn't even notice it happened.

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You are right, if timelines continue to exist then them changing it would not matter to us. But I have honestly a big problem with the theory that the bad one still exists. First this means that a unlimited amount of timelines can exists because everyone can choose something different thus altering the timeline. Which makes my brain at least hurt and gives me the feeling like we are not worth much. Just one of the many timelines in game.

Emet seemingly thinks that changing the past will always change the current present and future and even Graha Tia believed that much, which is why he is surprised that he is still there. Of course this may have been the hint that multiple timelines will continue to exist but at the same time Graha Tia could simply be a paradox.

I do wonder if we will ever find out what is correct.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Didnt he kinda wonder (at least in the german version) what would happen if Black Rose was powered up by the light? They are not perfect people and can make mistakes. I mean the crystal tower was probably something Emet helped building and even he did not understand its massive hidden power and something like Black rose seemingly did not exist before that.

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Black Rose existed at least before Dalamud fell, since Gaius had a hand in stopping it before. There's a series of side quests in...The Fringes? One of the Ala Mhigo zones, anyways... That goes into it. As for what Emet-Selch said, when I watched that again, I took that to be "Oh hey, this thing if forced with light could be our next Calamity!" more than anything.

Edit for time travel train of thought. I am in no way being completely serious about this idea, but what if, in addition to Hydaelyn creating the 13 shards when she Sundered Zodiark, she happened to create multiple timelines as well, and G'raha Tia's whole time travel adventure was a way to try and Rejoin the timelines. I'm not really sure where the theory would go, since obviously there's absolutely no proof that this could remotely be a thing. Just a random train of thought.

So the logic of time travel is always one to explode peoples' minds but .... two contradictory things make me wonder if we're completely wrong about what's going on. Alexander says we can't go back in the past to change the future; everything that happened with Alexander was orchestrated to produce the 'right' future but it was always going to do that because apparently 'them's the laws'. Then suddenly Gra'ha et al throw that out of the window and DO change the future. But .... hold on .... they can't have changed the future because if they did, Gra'ha would cease to exist. So there's a time loop that exists on the way to the Bad Future that DOESN'T ACTUALLY CHANGE ANYTHING. Because it ALWAYS HAPPENED. That allows Alexander's Law to stand and also allows Gra'ha not to disappear; since nothing is different, of course he wouldn't disappear, and he was able -as he and we thought - to change time because nothing has changed in fact.
I would love them to go this way just because it would make a great story imo. Of course I'm just speculating but I can't currently come up with anything else that lets both Alexander's Law and Gra'ha continuing be true
And this is really badly expressed, but I'm rambling lol. I'll try and put it better once I'm not typing on my phone