When do the training wheels come off?

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

stuff

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Here's a short and quick refresher:

WAR didn't get tank stance until 30, and PLD didn't get tank stance until 40 (the struggle was real). SCH also didn't get an esuna for Brayflox, which had a lot of poison during final boss. (Antidote cooldown didn't help) Jobs also required leveling a sub-class to 15, and any tank without a job stone was basically useless for holding enmity.

Compared to now - ARR was much more difficult. The messed up part of all this is I didn't run into as many facerollers in ARR as I do today. Perhaps because the population is much larger now, but does that excuse work when things have been made so much easier?

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

So... In defense of the 'new player' part, I'm pretty sure you don't lose the sprout until you finish ARR msq.

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Sprout is lost at 7 days played time and finishing Stormblood. It disappears as soon as you pick up the first quest to start Shadowbringers IF you meet the played time requirement. If you see a sprout in Shadowbringers content, it's pretty much guaranteed that they bought a boost.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

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You also missed that the jobs are overtuned for lower content now. Seen Satasha a few time not even have bubbles before boss dies. Don't really need to worry about mechanics when you can just stomp them.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I'm going to state this once.

Please read it carefully:

Doing the MSQ and Class/Job Quests gives you equipment. There is no reason, beyond being neglectful, that anyone doing ARR should end up going into a dungeon/trial with equipment more than (a lenient) 10 levels below the dungeon's/Trial's level. Not only that but equipment is insanely cheap to purchase from stores if you are THAT hard up for a piece of equipment. This all excludes Accessories because they don't actually matter much while leveling.

Also, you aren't wiping because the other players are carrying you.

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Originally Posted by Azbroolah

You're moving the goalposts here. The tank in question was using a level 15 shield in a level 44 instance, not gear from the previous dungeon. There is no excuse besides deliberate laziness for using gear that is almost 30 levels too low.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Having full poetics gear isn't comparable to having a mix of +10 levels under gear that's a mix of caster/DPS/tank gear for a 4 man trial.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I'm going to state this once.

Please read it carefully:

Doing the MSQ and Class/Job Quests gives you equipment. There is no reason, beyond being neglectful, that anyone doing ARR should end up going into a dungeon/trial with equipment more than (a lenient) 10 levels below the dungeon's/Trial's level. Not only that but equipment is insanely cheap to purchase from stores if you are THAT hard up for a piece of equipment. This all excludes Accessories because they don't actually matter much while leveling.

Also, you aren't wiping because the other players are carrying you.

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I think this comment was directed personally at me, but I buy poetics gear and gear from NPC vendors to ensure I don’t stay behind. But I also remember making mistakes a few months ago that were silly, but it was because I was returning to the game rather than being dumb and lazy. My beef is that people in the past tended to always just assume I’m dumb and lazy if I do something wrong while simultaneously never explaining to me what I did wrong.

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Originally Posted by Lmcgyver

I find that the only reasons for people being in this situation is ignorance of how poorly the Recommended Gear button is implemented at low levels or how different stats affect them (in which case, elucidation of the feature is required), ignorance of the fact that they can get acceptable gear from a vendor (prompting a quick pointer to what vendor sells gear they can use; or if I'm feeling generous, a free, full HQ set for their job when the duty is finished that'll be good to last them 10 levels), or just outright laziness (which is not an acceptable excuse).

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The recommended gear button is very appealing and I don’t think it’s a coincidence we’re discussing a level 44 tank. Yelling at that person, kicking them, isn’t going to help them realize the limitations of the recommended gear button.
When someone doesn’t have their stone, ask them if they are aware they don’t have their stone equipped. It’s quite possible they don’t realize the recommended gear button doesn’t always equip the stone and could be standing there as confused as you are.

For example, I once healed a dungeon where the tank wasn’t using grit, and this was a HW dungeon. I could have yelled at the tank, tried to initiate a kick, but instead I simply said “Are you aware you don’t have grit on?” – one second later, it was on and never left.

I find it’s more useful to interact with the other player rather than simply assuming they are dumb, lazy, and nothing will change no matter is said. Some people are just new, but willing to work, or they don’t realize they forgot to do something they normally do.

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Originally Posted by HakaseNyan

Here's a short and quick refresher:

WAR didn't get tank stance until 30, and PLD didn't get tank stance until 40 (the struggle was real). SCH also didn't get an esuna for Brayflox, which had a lot of poison during final boss. (Antidote cooldown didn't help) Jobs also required leveling a sub-class to 15, and any tank without a job stone was basically useless for holding enmity.

Compared to now - ARR was much more difficult. The messed up part of all this is I didn't run into as many facerollers in ARR as I do today. Perhaps because the population is much larger now, but does that excuse work when things have been made so much easier?

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ARR played differently, but it wasn't noticeably more difficult for leveling content. Players were just overall newer and more incompetent.

imo, the problem is the game content goes easy > easy> easy> easy> savage. There's no in between. The older content is so trivial, you don't really learn anything. Plus you typically only need to run it once, so the repetition isn't there to make mechanics sink in. Then people jump into savage and get wrecked. I really wish they'd kick normal raids up a notch in difficulty so there is stepping stone between faceroll MSQ content and savage.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Hauke wasn't just the void lamps. The patroling maidens with their aoe terrorize could easily wipe groups as well. Not everyone would stun that cast or realize to focus them down. Brayflox was more just about being up to date and paying attention, more for healers as some nasty poisons there. Qarn's bees with final sting which could wreak a tank, as well as its crocs with their rear cone attacks. Dzamel where need to fight in specific locations for the first portion, and not get knocked over a ledge in a later one. Stone vigals delayed spawn ice sprites. Aurum Vales fruit mechanic. Each added a small degree of challenge to their respective dungeon, either by adding a little more complexity or a little more difficulty. Not enough to really be much of a hurdle to most, but enough to catch those coasting along as well as be appreciated by others. Just enough of a change of pace to be noticed but not also warrant going up a full difficulty setting, as they very carefully built up the difficulty across the dungeons in ARR much like one would expect from a single player game. ARR's MSQ expected more out of the player as they progressed through it.

The expansion dungeons and MSQ have not felt that way yet. Having to prioritize specific trash mobs for stuns/kills is rare, and instead we just mass aoe them all. Very few twists are applied to any mechanics. In short, very little in the new content tries to get the player to step outside of normal play. So once see and understand the gimmick, its easy. As the gimmick is usually just an odd aoe pattern.

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Yup, I recognize everything you are discussing, and I’ll add the doom floor in Qarn, which made us go up the hill on the side of the floor to just avoid it. I can also agree with argument that it was more difficult in ARR, but you also acknowledge that the difficult wasn’t exactly cuphead or dark souls difficulty. There were bad players back then too, and people didn’t exactly spend hours getting through these dungeons like a savage raid.

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Originally Posted by HakaseNyan

Here's a short and quick refresher:

WAR didn't get tank stance until 30, and PLD didn't get tank stance until 40 (the struggle was real). SCH also didn't get an esuna for Brayflox, which had a lot of poison during final boss. (Antidote cooldown didn't help) Jobs also required leveling a sub-class to 15, and any tank without a job stone was basically useless for holding enmity.

Compared to now - ARR was much more difficult. The messed up part of all this is I didn't run into as many facerollers in ARR as I do today. Perhaps because the population is much larger now, but does that excuse work when things have been made so much easier?

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I know, I was there! It’s the reason when I returned that I had all these classes at various levels in addition to my main job because I levelled them for the cross talents. I had so many things greyed out when I return.

On the topic of gear, I'm sure anyone looking at me that day were amazed to see a white mage with a shield!

I also played Scholar and Brayflox was fine, seriously. What I remember more than anything is tanks having no idea where to go and pulling the entire swamp. We NEVER got Esuna, we had leeches, and the reason we could heal Brayflox is that the healing arsenal of Scholar was kinda OP. Maybe I was an amazing player in ARR, but it’s also possible some of your are being hyperbolic regarding the difficulty level of ARR.

Are we not even going to discuss that the primary way to level up was also fates rather than dungeons? So, how do dungeons serve as some great filter when most people are doing fates unless it’s roulette or a required dungeon? People didn’t dungeon spam from 1-50 like today.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

imo, the problem is the game content goes easy > easy> easy> easy> savage. There's no in between. The older content is so trivial, you don't really learn anything. Plus you typically only need to run it once, so the repetition isn't there to make mechanics sink in. Then people jump into savage and get wrecked. I really wish they'd kick normal raids up a notch in difficulty so there is stepping stone between faceroll MSQ content and savage.

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I believe EX trials fill that pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Wow, what a nice and helpful attitude. I bet you're just a hoot in the mentor roulette~

It doesn't take much effort at all to attempt to help a new person to the game and help them understand something, but I guess it takes less effort to throw things way out of proportion and ignore the fact that you're unwilling to help someone. Maybe you should find a game better suited to you.

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What a great attitude! What I would expect from this 'community'.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

I'll be the bad guy.

I don't know why we talk about new players as if they were defenseless babies. When I started playing during 2.0, I picked the tank role up and I KNEW that I had to wear heavy armor because I have to eat damage and better armor gives better reduction, right? Like every RPG ever. You learn while doing dungeons that, as you progress, better gear will drop (Green big numbers with a plus sign indicating it's an upgrade) And that's a something you have to be aware of, specially when you know you will get paired up with other people. So I feel it's just laziness. It's an attitude that I've seen plenty of times in this game no matter what level.

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Forget new players. Mentors are usually the ones I see not playing properly, or a lot of the time not even wearing the right gear.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Sadly this is true. My sister came to Siren when the Road to 60 was still active, and she hit level 34 so fast. She couldn't change to BRD yet as she wasn't there in the MSQ. I've had it happen on my character as well, duing stuff over level 30 where one "should" have their job class then.

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Thats no issue, as you cant enter the higher dungeons then either, you dont go stone vigil before the jobquest, you might get some gear somewhere but thats about it.