Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

How is it inherently flawed even with 20% mitigation given all the time?

How are you going to know how tenacity will affect you without these 20% if you dont know how much damage you would take?
Sorry but 4% is still 4%.
Even if you take for example 10k damage, that being reduced to 8k, tenacity will decrease it to 7680, thats still making you 4% more tanky relatively to other tank with only 20% mitigation bonus and without this extra tenacity.
Even if you apply another 20% into the caluclation, making it 6400, if you give one tank tenacity 4% bonus he will still be 4% more tankier and will stand 4% longer relatively to tank without it.

About this healing bonus, its "proven" (no pic, no video, nothing) but the prove is really old, and in game description doesnt detail what kind of HP restored it really affects.

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So just dropping into explain, mitigation is multiplicative not additive, so for example in the old system if you had tank stance on as well as using rampart you wouldnt mitigate 40%, youd mitigate 36% (damage ×0.8x0.8) because of how buffs stack. So if in this case tenacity stacks like every other defensive buff, a 4% tenacity would actually equal 3% when taking into account the passive 20% (1x0.8x0.96=0.768) IE youve not been made 4% tankier

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Originally Posted by Barraind

https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19Y02 <- Here's your tenacity best in slot.

https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19Y0K <- Heres your non tenacity best using the same ilvl.


The tenacity build gains: 5.6% mitigation.
The avoid tenacity build gains: 3.6% damage, .8% crit and crit damage.

If you think getting less than 6% eHP is worth ~4.5% damage, I dunno what to tell you, but its not.

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Put tenacity melds with direct hit mix into the exact same gear

https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19YCC - tenacity
1260dh, 1948 crit, 2200 det, 2648 ten
Here are the multipliers 3.65% x 7.1% x 7.3% x 6.8% = 1.272

Yours
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19Y0K
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19YC7 (you choosed wrong earrings)
2380 direct hit, 1948 crit, 2200 det, 1558 ten
8.3% x 7.1% x 7.3% x 3.5% = 1.288

Literally 1.6% damage difference, and 3.3% mitigation for tenacity one which would be more if we used ilvl 460 and higher with 2 melds slot in accessories.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

So just dropping into explain, mitigation is multiplicative not additive, so for example in the old system if you had tank stance on as well as using rampart you wouldnt mitigate 40%, youd mitigate 36% (damage ×0.8x0.8) because of how buffs stack. So if in this case tenacity stacks like every other defensive buff, a 4% tenacity would actually equal 3% when taking into account the passive 20% (1x0.8x0.96=0.768) IE youve not been made 4% tankier

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Yes, but if you compare a tank with and without this 4% bonus mitigation from tenacity, a tank with tenacity is 4% more tanky than a tank without it.
You will stand there for 4% longer and you will be easier to heal by 4%.
With double 20% mitigation, you will mitigate 1000 dps to 640, reduce it by 4% its 614.4 dps you will receive, which is exact 96% of 640 value.
Now if your tank has 10k hp, and you divide this by dps from above, tank without tenacity will die in 15.625 seconds, where tank with tenacity will stand there for 16.276 seconds, which is 4.16% longer.
A 4% is 4%.

I posted this in a similar thread on the tank forums, but in case someone is interested in the difference and didn't catch it there:


I played with the tank DPS calculator (http://bit.ly/XIV50TANKDPS) a bit, comparing level 450 Paladin (Midlander Hyur) sets (Titania weapon, full Eden left side, Innocence accessories + one Eden ring on right side) with full Tenacity (or Direct Hit when Tenacity was capped) melds or full Direct Hit melds.


This is with Tenacity melds:
https://i.imgur.com/f1h9tzv.png

And this is with Direct Hit melds:
https://i.imgur.com/jyxKuEs.png


Full Direct Hit melds resulted in around 0.99% higher DPS and 2.5% less mitigation in i450 gear. The differences are small enough not to matter for casual content, but for Savage, I'd take that ~1% DPS increase any time.

I will take these 2.5% because it will make me a better MT and i like to MT, and i think tenacity is really good for dungeons and MT tanks in raids.
Less burden on healers, could translate into better group performance.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I will take these 2.5% because it will make me a better MT and i like to MT, and i think tenacity is really good for dungeons and MT tanks in raids.
Less burden on healers, could translate into better group performance.

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It won't change anything about how the healers are healing in any content.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You could make the same excuse on D hit, since it is just a chance to get bonus damage, it could proc less often than usually and that 1% difference could be gone.

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These are different cases because the DPS increase is an average and % based, while healing is based on the abilities your healers use and the amount of GCDs/OCDs they are using on healing. You melding tenacity will not change your healer's ability use in any way, so it doesn't affect the group performance. Because of how the content is designed (scripted damage, rare tank buster bursts, minor auto-attack damage, extremely strong damage mitigation and healing abilities and a lot of passive healing, and of course all the significant encounters being designed around an enrage timer), your higher DPS, no matter how small, will always be more significant to the group performance than a tiny bit of extra mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It won't change anything about how the healers are healing in any content.

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You could make the same excuse on D hit, since it is just a chance to get bonus damage, it could proc less often than usually and that 1% difference could be gone.

Bringing up the cost of materia seems like a joke. It is so easy to get clusters to buy them. Joining a hunt train or being a "Role in Need" for roulettes make it so simple.

Tenacity is a dead stat. Never meld tenacity.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

Bringing up the cost of materia seems like a joke. It is so easy to get clusters to buy them. Joining a hunt train or being a "Role in Need" for roulettes make it so simple.

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To be fair if you buy the cheap TEN materia, then convert your clusters to DH / Crit and sell those, its still some profit.

Anyways, I see this argument as largely pointless and redundant. If the difference between a DH and TEN meld is indeed like 1-3% dps... it's not a difference margin for people to argue over.

Sure in mathematical terms its clearly superior in pretty much any situation, but the number of times either will make a difference between a wipe and a clear is (in all likelihood) even more insignificant in percentage.

Likewise, 5% mitigation difference looks pretty nice on paper, but makes almost no practical difference due to how healers operate.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You could make the same excuse on D hit, since it is just a chance to get bonus damage, it could proc less often than usually and that 1% difference could be gone.

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Except if it doesn't save the healers any GCDs or resources, who even cares? You may as well have melded nothing at all and saved yourself the gil.