Just stop. It is enough with the spiteful salt. Enough with the stupid mentality of laughing at jobs that now have it bad just because you had it rough in the past. Whm doesn’t need its time to shine. We. Need. Balance. Having one or two top dogs does not achieve that. All healers need to shine. Stop favoring imbalance because you’re freaking petty and selfish. Eat a slice of humble pie. People shouldn’t be given this sort of reply when their favorite jobs aren’t enjoyable anymore. You wouldn’t like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynia
I for one don’t want yet ANOTHER expansion trying and failing at achieving balance, then losing out on an opportunity for a new job yet again. We should be trying to get that to happen, not rub it in people’s faces and laugh because your favored job is the only one in the role that’s doing well.
WHM DPS needs to stay this high.
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07-13-2019, 07:03 PMLadyKairi
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07-13-2019, 09:06 PMHawklaserWhile I agree with the part about the not rubbing it in because one job had it rough in the past and now others are in a bad spot, I don't agree with the Whm not needing its time to shine. Each healer, or any class for that matter, needs to shine, you even said so your self. The funny thing though, is for any class to have a moment to shine, takes things being slightly imbalanced. The best balance is achieved with carefully and meticulously crafted imbalances. Which is why I despise homogenized balance more than minor imbalance, because at least with minor imbalance, the classes still each have a unique identity instead of feeling like reskins.Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyKairi
So lets try looking at this from a different angle, what would be needed in 3 different boss fights or phases to have each healer shine at different times in the same instance? Also can it be done in way that it still applies once people have that particular grouping on farm? To do so you, kinda have to look at what uniquely sets the three apart from each other. Whm has always had the raw throughput, Sch has the better shields, Ast used to have the wider range of buffs(not quite sure anymore though). So for something that may let a Whm shine with its throughput, something that comes to mind is high sustained aoe with an added mechaninc of if a persons hp is below X% for a set amount of time bad stuff happens. And something for that may let Sch shine, attacks that could have an extra effect if they drop the target below X%. I don't really have an idea for Ast, as I am not quite sure what truly sets them apart anymore outside of their stance which cant be changed once in combat, so it would be a bad idea to design something around that,
The problem with creating new healers, is finding ways to make a different healing archetype that ends up roughly balanced with the others. We got the Raw Healer(Whm), the Sheild Healer(Sch), we don't really have a true Regen healer but SE kinda sees Regen as Whm's thing currently. Ast was kinda a Buffing healer. So you either need to put a very unique twist on one of those, or come up with something new entirely. Its also kinda why new styles of Tanks don't show up all that often. There is a little bit more wiggle room for DPS, but even then you do hit reskin territory fairly quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyKairi
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07-14-2019, 01:21 AMKinksYou can't really compare FF to Aion;Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynia
I mained cleric/glad on aion for years and even Cleric was way more versatile and fun to respond to situations than any healer ff can offer- not to mention game-play was exponentially faster. I dabbled with Sorc too, SM was okay, but wasn't my cup of tea, Sin arguably had one of the highest skill ceilings.
Anyways this isn't about that, What I'm saying is adding a few extra buttons to click isn't gonna kill anyone in SE, and giving us some flexibility to make the class engaging wont hurt either. -
07-14-2019, 01:41 AMLagomorph"Since the class was already boring, it's acceptable that we make that class even less fun to play." You do realize that this is basically what you're saying right? That's a pretty backwards way of thinking. If you enjoy a single-button rotation that's fine. But not all of us do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynia
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07-14-2019, 01:58 AMLegoTechnicThe entire problem with healer balance is that they tried to copy DPS balance in the Healer classes, and became determined to make WHM's the analog of BLM and a class that didn't need to buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawklaser
Originally you had WHM who had powerful heals and regens with passive mitigation and SCH who had powerful active mitigation and passive buffs but poor ability to heal large amounts, especially AoE. When HW roled around, they introduced AST which was a "buffing" healer, with minor role-switch options in regen and shields depending. SCH in turn already had a similar minor-spec option with fairy choice, being able to choose either a regen fairy or a buff fairy while keeping shields and mitigation as their primary calling (damn do I miss Virus). But when it came to WHM they decided to keep it as the traditional analog to BLM, presumably out of theme. BLM has never had any real party synergy abilities, and is for the most part a completely selfish DPS class that in compensation deals very high DPS. Its main drawback is that it seeks to be immobile, whereas other selfish DPS like MNK or SAM have the drawback of "too many melee in the crowd", which is often equally detrimental for mechanics, but since BLM can stay at range and most groups run two ranged spots, it found a lot of party value regardless.
Thus much like how BLM is the completely selfish DPS cannon that specializes in personal damage output with minimized mobility, its analog WHM was the selfish healer who forgoes party synergy and instead offers the biggest heals and less mobility. This was rather obviously their original design intention in HW, and its actually been stated that they wanted WHM to be "heal-focus" by design, because rather than give WHM a party buff of any sort they instead chose to nerf Selene and proceed to over time to try to balance healers that could party buff with one that can't. And naturally players tend to hate it, because healing a fight is completely different from DPSing it with completely separate goals and ceilings; there is no ceiling to DPS as long as aggro isn't an issue and the more the merrier, but with healing you only ever want to heal what is needed, as overheal is considered "a waste". Thus in progression party selection (because let's be clear, that was the only place any of this mattered), it became a very similar issue that MNK and later SAM found themselves in where they were competing in the meta against DRG, who had the useful pierce-damage debuff that the mandatory BRD/MCH required, and NIN with their Trick Attack. Because too much melee could make some spacing mechanics more difficult, there were often only two melee DPS slots to fight over, and while some groups did run three melee they were not typical.
As long as they adhere to this design philosophy players will never truly be happy. Despite having the strongest heals and the highest damage potencies WHM will always feel neglected as long as the other healers bring buffs that the other 6/8 raid members find to be more valuable, especially if they contribute with faster encounters. Additionally as long as they try to instead impose "value" for a pure-heal class by reducing the effectiveness of buffs, which has not only led to the gradual and complete death of Selene but the general neutering of the AST card system, then the identity of a "buffing" healer will continue to suffer. If the intention is to bring healers to a point where any healer combo can handle combat with minimal favoritism, then WHM needs to be made separate from the BLM design philosophy even if the two classes are iconically mirrors, and given a "buff-role" switch similar to SCH's fairy choice or AST's stances. Something that takes away something from their kit, but adds party synergy that the 6 out of 8 non-healing party members can salivate over. Only then will they be able to allow healer buffs to both be meaningful decisions and something the playerbase can feel good about.
And this will remain true no matter what they do for a "new" healer, be it debuff, haste, reflect, evasion, or whathaveyou. -
07-14-2019, 03:08 AMForteNightshadeUnfortunately, the devs seem utterly determine to maintain White Mage's identity as the selfish healer. I had hoped they would simply give White Mage Bravery and Cheer so it could compete with Astro's cards seamlessly. That just doesn't seem to be the case and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they stubbornly hold out on buffing Astro's utility purely to keep White Mage from falling out of favour again.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegoTechnic
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07-14-2019, 03:19 AMKDSilverWe won't work on healers balance with you then, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynia
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07-14-2019, 04:18 AMHawklaserI was around for a lot of the points you brought up, just kinda took a break between ARR and Stormblood. And how you described Sch is why I play it and not Whm, it took being proactive with the sheilds and dpsing to do well as a SCH in ARR, as SCH just did not have the raw throughput to handle heavy and continuous AoE well without exceptional MP management and use of the majority of their toolkit. I kinda miss the old interesting synergy between Sch and War tanks too, as Lustrate used to be %hp based.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegoTechnic
Your 3rd paragraph is why I kinda suggested that it needs to be looked at from a different angle, and try and ensure that there are bosses/phases in the hard content that while are able to be cleared with any healer, also very clearly favor having different ones along for different points. The same needs to happen with the DPS and Tanks, other wise its just a race to playing Healer, DPS or Tank and all classes loosing most of their identity in the pursuit of balance for the hardest content.
The real problem is figuring out how to design content that lets the different imbalances in the classes shine consistently, without alienating a class. The piercing problem kinda stemmed from a similar place, where not enough encounter variety was happening leading to buff/debuff synergy being more important. For SAM and MNK to get a little more use, all it might take would be consistent nasty bosses/phases that is severely weak to blunt/slashing... but noo... instead of creating very clear preferred setups for one specific spot of an instance, they instead went too generic which allowed for the synergy stuff to become all important. The key is having enough variety in each instance that there is no one party that is optimal for the whole thing.
And I just had an odd idea that could help with that for WHM as well. This is a little off the wall, but using something like the fetters debuff or others like it that prevent action, have a phase or boss that applies it fairly regularly with the option of a strong damage source to remove it early. The damage source would have to be strong enough, and the debuff applied often enough that really only a throughput healer like WHM could handle it being removed early consistently. Then again... I do remember some DPS in duty finders having a hard time doing the math to not insta-gib the tank back in Wanderer's Palace on the final boss when killing the adds. -
07-14-2019, 04:41 AMAyer2015compete with AST? AST is a mess currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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07-14-2019, 01:35 PMForteNightshadeI was implying it would compete with Stormblood AST. There wouldn't be a need to change the cards from what they were if they simply gave WHM utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015