Suggestion: healer-based incentives/rewards

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is.

At this point of the game, healers have more than completely spent their martyrdom credits. No one's buying that act. You're essential, but not at the cost of the other roles.

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Actually if talking just the basic content, healers and tanks can get through it just fine without any DPS. It'll be slow, but they'll get it done. I don't think the same can be said for any other duo composition. At least not in as many cases. In short, if you cannot kill the opposition before heals are needed, you're pretty much screwed. I don't think there is any other role in this game that can save a raid when 7 players are down, and the boss still has over 15%. Perhaps SMN or RDM can do so. But even without LB3, I'm not sure their MP can handle that without crippling themselves.

This is not the say that tanks and DPS are hogwash. They are all very important for getting through content, but trust me my friend, healers deserve their martyrdom credits even if you feel they don't.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Really horrible scenarios neither show that most basic content is hard, nor that healers doing more than healing and mechanics is essential to deal with them. You're the one trying to push both notions.

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As I said before the players you're doing the content with can change how the content feels. I have done some low lvl content that felt nightmarish and far higher lvl content that felt effortless. Why? Because of the sort of players I ended up with.

Or do we forget this to suit the argument that basic content must always be easy no matter who you end up with so we can keep pretending only tanks bear the burden of keeping the group intact?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

That's called backpedalling, because earlier you implied healers were essential in preventing/dealing with wipefests. Just because you're changing your argument now doesn't mean you didn't say so earlier in the topic.

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Are you seriously trying to say it's impossible for both of the following to be true? That healers are often instrumental in dealing with wipefests, and that you can experience bad wipefests as any role? What? xD

In case you're unaware, healers have the best kits to deal with group-wide disaster given that they're literally designed to deal with this. Other classes can help but they're never a replacement for actual healer classes. Just like how healer dps can never compete with the damage from an equally skilled dps player. This isn't glorifying healers. This is the truth. You're not going to get a well-timed clutch aoe heal paired with a Rescue from a tank or dps.

But does this mean wipefests are only stressful for healers? Absolutely not.

While healers are largely responsible for getting groups back to a healthy state, what happens while the majority of the dps are dead and there's a dps check? Well the remaining dps are suddenly pressured to try to pump out even more numbers even though it may be impossible and sometimes they have to weigh whether ressing someone will give the group more dps than saving mana for their own damage output. Tanks also feel the dps pressure along with simultaneously having to think about maintaining their role as the tank. And what about targeted mechanics that get casted on the wrong targets because the usual targets are dead? Well that's a problem any role can experience. Every role bears the weight of disastrous situations to some degree. How strenuous it is depends on the encounter and the people with you.

Which brings me to what this thread is about.

No, tanking is not the only role that requires skill or snap decision making, and it is not the only role that can be stressful. So it's not right that only tanks get role based rewards. Healers should get recognition too. But in addition to that I think dps should as well. All roles should have role based rewards, as I already said before.

Just because something is the least popular doesn't automatically mean it requires the most braincells to play. How appealing something is isn't always equal to how little effort it is to play. I personally find whm very easy to play compared to the other two healers but I don't play it because I find it boring.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is.

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Nothing new under the sun. We have people that treats everything at savage level and get upset if you go Sastasha without the best gear you can there.

But, about healer's dps, I just have to say if we have offensive skills, don't using them is a waste!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

No it isn't. If you want to talk about simply just clearing content, a healer doesn't have to use one offensive gcd or ogcd. If you want to talk about min/maxing, skipping raid phases, and overall playing optimally then yes it is required. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is ok to play this way, and if healers are not using offensive skills they will spend a lot of time just standing around or over-healing. But I do have to be real here. Now granted, I have not participated in any of the SB raids so I could be unaware if the devs have changed designing content that does not factor healer DPS into the clears. But I haven't heard anything from them about it.

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The game wasn't programmed to consider the healer DPS as an necessary damage to get the clear. Yoshi-P himself said so a long time ago. But the community thinks otherwise, because ABC, because half of the healer's work is doing DPS, because 2 healer's DPS is almost like there are an extra DPS there or they yet remember when WHM had some spot outDPSing actual DPS classes back on ARR times. The fact is that now - by the community standards - the healer's bare basic includes DPSing.

So, if we want to discuss the minimum standards, we have to define first which standards we are speaking. Remember that the community standards are higher than the dev team standards.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Oh believe me, I'm one of the first ones defending people doing their best. But let's not fool ourselves. You're both just arguing this to prop up the healer role. Funny how you both usually are on the side of people who don't do their best on other threads, but once someone even seems to suggest healers usually aren't theheroes you both seem to think they are, here comes the flip-flopping.

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While you are saying exactly what I said before and you criticized me for. How ironic...

But, well, I changed my mind a long time ago. And it seems that you've changed yours as well. Or you're against giving some prop to healers because you want to keep that props as a some sort of "Tank Privilege©". And wants to defend that privilege, even that means to say that healing is about standing 10 seconds there doing nothing while the poor tank must save the world to just get the clear.

But there are one thing I reinforced in my mind: I wouldn't like to be in the same party as you. Lucky me we're on different DCs.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

While you are saying exactly what I said before and you criticized me for. How ironic...

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What I'm saying is for healers not to suddenly pretend that they need to do everything expected of them, when they were defending healers only need to do the bare minimum in past threads. All just to play the "healer hero/martyr" card - healers do everything, they guarantee victory and they have to suffer through so much (when any reasonable person knows it's all 3 roles doing it, not just one.)

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

But, well, I changed my mind a long time ago. And it seems that you've changed yours as well. Or you're against giving some prop to healers because you want to keep that props as a some sort of "Tank Privilege©". And wants to defend that privilege, even that means to say that healing is about standing 10 seconds there doing nothing while the poor tank must save the world to just get the clear.

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I'm DPS main, but nice try at trying to twist my argument around. I'm defending mounts for everyone, not just tanks, not just healers.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

But there are one thing I reinforced in my mind: I wouldn't like to be in the same party as you. Lucky me we're on different DCs.

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Don't worry, I have healer friends who do their job excelently and don't have any "healers are martyrized heroes" complexes. When they're not available, I just heal duties myself.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Don't worry, I have healer friends who do their job excelently and don't have any "healers are martyrized heroes" complexes. When they're not available, I just heal duties myself.

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I love how saying "healers usually do more than just heal and boss tactics" means you're trying to make martyrs out of them. That acknowledging that the community expects more as a base must be an exaggeration.

Well if that's the case I guess I must be a unicorn for also weaving in dps and using any non-healing utility? But then...that would mean I see unicorns a lot, because I see healers do this very often.

Hmmm.

Are you sure we're playing the same game?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

All just to play the "healer hero/martyr" card - healers do everything, they guarantee victory and they have to suffer through so much (when any reasonable person knows it's all 3 roles doing it, not just one.)

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Who said healers do "everything"? Is this you highlighting something no one said again? Like when you said "No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is" when no one had said this at all?

I'm starting to think you actually just dislike healers, so you pull stuff out of the air in an attempt to delegitimize them.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I love how saying "healers usually do more than just heal and boss tactics" means you're trying to make martyrs out of them. That acknowledging that the community expects more as a base must be an exaggeration.

Well if that's the case I guess I must be a unicorn for also weaving in dps and using any non-healing utility? But then...that would mean I see unicorns a lot, because I see healers do this very often.

Hmmm.

Are you sure we're playing the same game?.

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Oh excuse me. I didn't notice that you just entered the topic and have no clue of what people are talking about. I'm sure the main argument was that healers deserve rewards based solely on the kindness of the devs, and not the narrative that healers have to do so much all the time to ensure success of the party/alliance and they have to suffer so much. Protip: if everyone's doing their job, healers aren't shining ahead of the other two roles. So let's not use screw ups as an argument, when healers can screw up too and when there's also pretty lousy healers out there.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Who said healers do "everything"? Is this you highlighting something no one said again? Like when you said "No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is" when no one had said this at all?

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Uuh, you did, remember? When you berated someone for saying healers only need to heal and do mechanics in most basic content ? Which you said was incorrect. Therefore, the logic conclusion is that most basic content equates Savage difficulty, where healers definitely can't afford to drop the ball... But yeah, let's pretend we haven't argued this already several pages ago and you're still hitting the same key after all of this...

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm starting to think you actually just dislike healers, so you pull stuff out of the air in an attempt to delegitimize them.

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Right, I hate healers while keeping my SCH geared up right after my RDM (main) and healing myself frequently...
I'm starting to think you don't support rewards for all three roles after all, because you keep shilling and putting your favorite role on a pedestal, and being very disingenuous about things already discussed previously.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Uuh, you did, remember? When you berated someone for saying healers only need to heal and do mechanics in most basic content ? Which you said was incorrect. Therefore, the logic conclusion is that most basic content equates Savage difficulty, where healers definitely can't afford to drop the ball... But yeah, let's pretend we haven't argued this already several pages ago and you're still hitting the same key after all of this...

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Are you serious? You think content is literally only split into savage/ex and "the rest"? So then you think Bardam's Mettle is the same difficulty as Sastasha normal? You don't think there is anything resembling a difficulty curve in the game? You don't think the game gradually demands more from players as they lvl up?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

and healing myself frequently...

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Are you sure? Because you have some really funny ideas about how difficulty is balanced in the game.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I'm starting to think you don't support rewards for all three roles after all, because you keep shilling and putting your favorite role on a pedestal, and being very disingenuous about things already discussed previously.

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I didn't put my role on a pedestal, OP did. And how does me defending the legitimacy of my role mean I don't give a toss about the other two? I'm not allowed to care about multiple things?