what is it with these damn elitists in this game?

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

They were asking if pro athletes perform 100%, every time all the time, when playing with pros. Not your example of if a guy that played football in high school walked up and demanded to play with Man United. You are comparing apples (guy who played football in highschool) to oranges (pro players). Where as they are comparing oranges that are having a 'bad day' in performance, to other pros.

In your case, of course you shouldn't expect someone who doesn't know what they are doing to be let in with people who run that content day after day, blindfold. But kicking someone cause they failed something more than once or twice is a bit much as well.

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In my experience it actually is more like the example/metaphor I used: People dont get mad at someone who is at their general skill-level and shows that, because that person made one mistake - specially if the person in question owns up to it, apologise and signals "It wont happen again, it was an honest mistake, I know what I'm doing" - like that DRK I had in a recent Tsuyu-farm-group: He placed his meteor to late, resulting in a wipe, but he acknowledge that, identified that he made the mistake (and why - he wanted to get one last hit in) and assured us it wouldnt happen again. And it didnt.
One the other hand I had people in such parties who wouldnt understand meteor-placement even after it was explained the third time - and yet they insisted on being in that content. Which is sort of their right, but its also the right of the 7 other people in the party to say "...yeah, not with us".

Most dismisses I'm seeing arent "pros" dismissing "pros" over one mistake - its "pros" dismissing high school players, who believe they're pros because they scored the winning goal against another highschool two seasons ago. Or in other words: Most people I see being dismissed are the ones who cleared the NM and believe because they managed that, they can clear the EX-mode just as easly and then fall flat on their face when they have to realise that EX actually requires an amount of skill and effort that they dont have (yet).

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I don't know, man. I just don't know. I'm with on the notion that if a person is failing a specific mechanic multiple times, something needs to happen. I just...can't bring myself to say that just because a person isn't performing up to your standards, or might be having an off day, doesn't mean he can and probably does do savage content with FCs, or friends, or what have you. I am not so quick to say that because my experience with the other healer in my Shinryu Extreme doesn't know what to do with the first dragon tail marker, or seems to forget where to go for Earth Shaker, it suddenly means that they are shit, and need to go back to casual content.

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I'd like to reply to that specifically, because there are two points in there that I'd like to reply to:

First the "not performing to my standards"-thing. I feel that as long as I make those standards clear beforehand, for example in a PF asking people to know the fight up to a certain phase and someone clearly shows that they dont, yet joined anyways, I see nothing wrong with dismissing them with a message of "Sorry, we wanted to practise phase 2, while you clearly need more practise in phase 1 first!"
I found that most "standards" or expectations of people in this game are quite reasonable - as I tried to express in my previous post: Its not 95 percentile, its playing your job at level 70, that shows that you know you're at level 70 and what to do there.

On the off-day-thing: Sure, anyone can have a bad day! But at that point, whats stopping that person from saying "Sorry, today isnt my day, I cant focus - I'll leave this party for now!"

We're obviously only seeing a glimpse of that person performance at any given time - I have FC-mates who will only run stuff with people they know, because we have some rather special ways of dealing with mechanics.
I'm not saying that someone who cant clear content my way cant clear content at all - but if someone joins my party, they will be held to my standards (which are actually pretty low, but obviously there are still certain expectations - basic rotation and strategy down etc.).
If they dont like that, they're very welcome to make their own party.

I dont have an issue with people making mistakes or having a bad day - I have an issue with people joining a party and then trying to bend it to their rules and needs.
PF looking to practise meteors in Suzaku? You better make sure you can reach that point of the fight reliable - instead of throwing the whole party back to square one, with you practising phase one.

A lot people seem to argue for the "poor casual player" who just cant get a kill because "mean elitsts" kick them all the time, while not realising, that those meanies have probably set up parties in a way that benefitted their goals and their playstyle - and the casual player joined them, instead of looking for a party that benefitted their goals and their playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

"mean elitsts"

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I usually find the real elitests are not the ones who expect you to perform up to a certain level, but the ones who expect you to wipe 20 times on something they can't seem to grasp with a smile on your face and kind words for their attempt. Or the ppl who don't want to bother gearing or learning rotations but still want to be part of a farm or raid group.

I actually stopped raiding in this game because I couldn't handle all the ppl who wanted carries or who would laugh as you wiped for the 30th time because they don't know where to stand even 30 fights later and then rage and scream at you over discord and then bad mouth you or your FC because you simply tell them its not working out. I helped to carry ppl who spent there time face down in the dirt through coil during ARR and even more during HW. I helped ppl who spent 80% of there time KO'd on every primal, get Kirin. I just don't have it in me to do it again.

There is a learning curve, but seriously if you are laughing because you wiped 7 other ppl 20 times or you just cant figure out where to stand after 3 nights of repeated attempts, its not the other players that are the problem.

I have found over the years that the ppl stated above far outnumber the ones that want you to perform to unreal expectations. It's like if you ask ppl to do even the bare minimum or god forbid, learn a 3 button rotation, you are a dirty elistest these days.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

A lot people seem to argue for the "poor casual player" who just cant get a kill because "mean elitsts" kick them all the time, while not realising, that those meanies have probably set up parties in a way that benefitted their goals and their playstyle - and the casual player joined them, instead of looking for a party that benefitted their goals and their playstyle.

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Those are the people that are using there subpar play style as a crutch, they want a free win. I'm not denying they exist, it's a very real thing, and disgusting. You have every right to get pissed at people that try to do this. I personally have gone in to parties thinking I'm ready for this part of the trial, find out I'm not, and feel like an ass for embarrassing myself and wasting peoples time, and leave....

But so does the other side of the coin....and you guys seem all too quick to dismiss those people as 'oh...he's just being a bit vocal about his opinions.' or even worse 'He has a right to publicly shame and bully you by calling you bad and worthless, you are ruining his play experience.' Sitting here and telling everyone 'Oh, it's cool if someone owns up to their mistake, and says they'll do better. We'll take their word on it, and everything will be fine.' No it won't? And if it does, I - again - want to know where you are living, and if I can have a slice of that comradely.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

You are very blunt...and to the point, with no filter at all...

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I need to play with you in-game some time :) (serious offer)

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ok, send me a tell on best server (goblin)

Had a funny incident yesterday. Was doing Alphascape 3.0 and we had a well geared summoner and an MT who wasn't as well geared. Tank did countdown, summoner cast a spell to go off as soon as tank pulled and of course drew aggro and got himself killed before tank could re-establish.

Summoner kind of freaks and says something like "Maybe you shouldn't be tanking'. He then makes the salute emote and dc's. The whole time I'm thinking casters have TWO aggro reducing abilities and he didn't use a single one. I used diversion myself and had no issues.

I think he dc'd himself hoping we'd kick him, but no one did. He came back mid DPS check and we finished without issue. He not only had a terrible attitude, he was a coward and tried to run away after being a jerk. Lol.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

But so does the other side of the coin....and you guys seem all too quick to dismiss those people as 'oh...he's just being a bit vocal about his opinions.' or even worse 'He has a right to publicly shame and bully you by calling you bad and worthless, you are ruining his play experience.' Sitting here and telling everyone 'Oh, it's cool if someone owns up to their mistake, and says they'll do better. We'll take their word on it, and everything will be fine.' No it won't? And if it does, I - again - want to know where you are living, and if I can have a slice of that comradely.

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I'm not a 100% certain what you are saying here, so I'm not sure if revealing my adress would help.

I never said that shaming anyone anywhere would be okay to do - its not. In the case of the OP I said its understandble, that doesnt mean I approve of it - and since OP kinda did the same, in the sense of their emotions getting the better of them by creating a thread to vent about that guy by throwing around the word "elitist" (we all know that thats used as an insult) and phrases like "How dare he!" I feel its kinda evend out - no angels here.

No one has the right to shame anyone - however I firmely believe that you do have the right to call someone out on the mistakes they're making in a polite or at least neutral manner. Dismissing someone from your party who cant contribute (enough) to the success of the run is a totally legit thing, as long as you do with "Hey, person, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you need more practise before you can clear this!"
Personally I have excused myself from "kill parties" like that, when it was clear that the group in question needed more practise in the first phase of the fight - "I'm sorry, I'm willing to help you get the kill, but you need to practise phase one first."

I know that treating everyone polite and kind isnt realistic and my adress wont help you because its not happening here - I'm not describing an existing reality, I'm describing how things like that should be handled.
And that would be with respect on both sides - respect from the "elitist" in a way that they can dismiss someone from their party without insults and respect from the "casual" by not sneaking their way into parties in which they dont belong (yet) and wasting the time of other people.
So currently both sides need to work on their behaviour, even where I live.
The problem with that is that it is very easy and "socially acceptable" to say: "Dont insult people!", while asking the other side to change their behaviour is a delicate matter - we dont have official parsers, players arent aware of their skill-level and they are being very sensitive, when you tell them they're doing something wrong (even if you do so in a polite and friendly way).

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I'm not a 100% certain what you are saying here, so I'm not sure if revealing my adress would help.

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Haha..not physical address, man. It's a turn-of-phrase. Kind of like saying you are seeing the world through rose tinted glasses, or refuse to see the bad in things. I'm saying that if you are getting in parties were people mutually agree on things, accept people making mistakes, and being kind and considerate when kicking someone from the party because they aren't cutting it, I want to live in your world. As in: I want to be on your server, cause it sure as hell isn't that way on Couerl.

I mean, such is the issue with anecdotes? I'm on Coeurl as well, have been since launch, and haven't had as bad an experience.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Haha..not physical address, man. It's a turn-of-phrase. Kind of like saying you are seeing the world through rose tinted glasses, or refuse to see the bad in things. I'm saying that if you are getting in parties were people mutually agree on things, accept people making mistakes, and being kind and considerate when kicking someone from the party because they aren't cutting it, I want to live in your world. As in: I want to be on your server, cause it sure as hell isn't that way on Couerl.

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Dont worry, I got that you didnt wanted to come over for tea and cake (even though I'm an excellent baker!) :P

And I can assure you that it isnt like that on Odin either - I am well aware that what I'm describing is a perfect world that doesnt exist, because we're having actual jerkish eltitist and tones and tones of people who are just plain bad with or without realising it.
The only reason my experience might not be as bad as yours is my personal approach: I dont let either behaviour get to and excuse myself from parties in which I find either one of those types present - or, if the majority of the party is actually decent, I suggest for the person in question to be removed without being insulting about it.
Odin and the Chaos datacenter can be a real hell and they're not a perfect world to live in (before you're getting your transfer-ticket over), but you might be surprised how much your approach can change the tiny world of an 8-man-party you're in.

I know that they're jerks out there - on both sides - but just because I'm advocating for a change in behaviour and am saying things like "You know, it would be really nice if everyone treated everyone else with some respect" doesnt mean I dont see the problem. I just refuse to be part of it and maybe thats work out for me or maybe I'm lucky, but most of the times I dont have aweful experiences - at least not on a personal, insulting level.