Patch 4.4 (Prelude in Violet) Speculation Thread! (Possible spoilers [NO LEAKS])

To me the jury is still out on exactly how accurate the whole 'Echo allows a person to transcend death' thing really is, as there are plenty of cases of Echo users dying... and staying dead (you just have to look at the Path of the Twelve, the Sions' predecessor organization pior to the Calamity - nearly all their members were awoken to the Echo and yet most perished in the Battle of Carteneau.

And especially Una Tayuun and her friends Satzloh and Percevains (the miqo'te, roegadyn and elezen Scions who were originally members of the Path who had amnesia in the Waking Sands, only to be all killed when Livia and her Garlean thugs raided the place) is further proof to the contrary, given we buried their deceased remains at the Church of Saint Adama Landama (and their souls are later found in the Palace of the Dead to boot!), and yet all three had the Echo (this was confirmed back in 1.0), which this is pretty telling that the Echo does not allow a person to cheat death.. at least by default.

Instead, personally I think this transcendence with the Echo only comes about with sufficent mastery of it - or if an outside force transcends that person for them (this would definetely ring true for Minfilia at least, if not Evil!Derplander and his friends). And even Zenos coming back from the dead can sort of be handwaved by the simple fact it is not the actual Echo he has, but an artificial similacrum of it, and throw in Elidibus using him as his meatsuit.... and it opens up a whole new can of aetheric worms.

I think the key word is allows. When properly developed, the Echo allows one to transcend death. When the Sahagin elder tried to make use of this faculty, the act was very deliberate, and self-guided. Ditto the Warriors of Darkness. You can see and feel what's going on as the power revs up; Minfilia can sense it being invoked just by being nearby.

This doesn't mean if you have the Echo and die you just don't die. As you say, we've seen plenty of Echo users die and just ... well, die. That makes it all the more weird to me that Zenos died and just didn't. He didn't want to live, he didn't try to live, he didn't rev up the Echo, we didn't feel anything powerful and Echo-ey happening near by. He just woke up in another body like, "What in the seventh hell?"

I'm hoping that gets addressed, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

It seemed, to me at least, have some sort of importance in the Stormblood MSQ but it quickly got covered up by everything else. Lingering shots, random increases in fighting ability, cool fancy red-black particle effects (which I actually thought might tie Zenos to getting Ascian help when I saw it in the Stormblood launch trailer! lol), the sword seemed to be so important and so woefully overlooked and underdeveloped.

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I think you may be onto something. If that was the sword he took his life with - I can't recall - the fact that it was a suicide might have particular ritualistic importance to this artefact. Perhaps it was even designed for such a use.


As per Moose's post, it does seem like reincarnating takes a highly skilled and developed use of the Echo. I'm also open to the notion that if the Resonance is the gifting of the Ascian echo, they might not have imbued enough of it to allow for reincarnation (maybe as a failsafe), and so the sword might be the requisite plot device here to allow for this - but perhaps enough to preserve him. If it trapped his soul, so could it trap another... but for reasons I've mentioned in the past about Zenos's new form, I have a strong feeling that SE is playing us for fools with the blade's name. ;)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I have a strong feeling that SE is playing us for fools with the blade's name. ;)

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What does the name mean?

Serpent-slayer, according to my google-fu skills.

http://symphogear.wikia.com/wiki/Ame_no_Habakiri

Seems like SE is having a bit of fun.

Edit: I have my theory as to why this might become significant. I don't think Zenos, as such, has the power to slay "Zenos". He was bested by the WoL, and this new entity is his former Resonance-enhanced body plus an Ascian capable of using it to its full extent. My belief, confirmed through recent lore events, is that the host the Ascian takes might limit how greatly they can manifest their power, most likely because their god is in another shard and so for all effects and purposes, they're in a similar situation to extra-planar entities in other fantasy settings. Hence, merging two merely "adequate" hosts into the Ascian Prime would allow Igeyorhm and Lahabrea to avail themselves of this form's greater power. When Elidibus refers to "Zenos"'s adamant form, he's probably referring to something more than just its physicality - after all, Nabriales could augment a regular host to be so powerful as to lift up Moenbryda like a feather, so physical strength alone is childsplay to an Ascian. This might also be why Elidibus is confident that the WoL poses little threat to him as things stand, as he is more fully able to channel his full power in a body he has modified to suit his purposes. So on that basis, the new and probably already weaker Zenos will be hopelessly outmatched. Where I think this blade might become significant, is that it could serve as a vessel to trap Elidibus's aetheric form, on the basis that it was able to hold in Zenos's soul. How that plays out, if it does, is anyone's guess, but it would be consistent with the fact that we need to both trap them and utilise a massive quantity of aether to truly kill them. Could be Zenos gets a "killing blow"; could be he gifts it to the Scions (on the assumption that his motives change and he seeks to make better use of his "second life"); could be that we wrest it out of his cold, dying hands and realise its purpose. Could be, of course, that this is all a red herring and none of this will play out in this manner.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think the key word is allows. When properly developed, the Echo allows one to transcend death. When the Sahagin elder tried to make use of this faculty, the act was very deliberate, and self-guided. Ditto the Warriors of Darkness. You can see and feel what's going on as the power revs up; Minfilia can sense it being invoked just by being nearby.

This doesn't mean if you have the Echo and die you just don't die. As you say, we've seen plenty of Echo users die and just ... well, die. That makes it all the more weird to me that Zenos died and just didn't. He didn't want to live, he didn't try to live, he didn't rev up the Echo, we didn't feel anything powerful and Echo-ey happening near by. He just woke up in another body like, "What in the seventh hell?"

I'm hoping that gets addressed, lol.

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Well, something to bear in mind is the fact that Fordola exists as an example of the Resonance activating involuntarily and against the wishes of its bearer. Zeno's situation could be similar. He may have wanted to die, but his Resonance fired off anyway, just as Fordola would really love to stop experiencing the tormented memories of the people she oppressed, but nope. This could be a key difference between the Resonance and the Echo - the former is much more difficult to control. (On the other hand, just about every single time the WoL has experienced an Echo vision, it has not been premeditated. It just sorta happens. So maybe regular Echo pretty much does what it wants, as well, but is a bit more polite about it? XD)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well, something to bear in mind is the fact that Fordola exists as an example of the Resonance activating involuntarily and against the wishes of its bearer. Zeno's situation could be similar. He may have wanted to die, but his Resonance fired off anyway, just as Fordola would really love to stop experiencing the tormented memories of the people she oppressed, but nope. This could be a key difference between the Resonance and the Echo - the former is much more difficult to control. (On the other hand, just about every single time the WoL has experienced an Echo vision, it has not been premeditated. It just sorta happens. So maybe regular Echo pretty much does what it wants, as well, but is a bit more polite about it? XD)

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Come to think of it the Echo almost got us killed in Yanxia and Alisae had to save us while we saw that flashback about Yotsuyu. Also didn't Krile only get kidnapped in 4.0 because Arenvald likewise had an echo vision at an inopportune time?

You know, it'd be nice to have the echo and use it as an excuse if I get caught nodding off at work. "No sir I wasn't sleeping, I was just having an important vision! It wasn't my fault!"