Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

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Originally Posted by Hunky

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Great post.

What do you say to the idea that in such a case where your healing is not frequently needed, you can just bring another DPS in your position so that the remaining healers have more to do?

If the healing requisite is low and MP required to support that healing is nearly a non-issue, doesn't your spot become redundant to a healer who heals 2x as much and spends 2x as much mana as you do? If you are frequently experiencing down time and very rarely having trouble with MP, isn't the logical choice to just bring another actual DPS?

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Originally Posted by zipzo

Great post.

What do you say to the idea that in such a case where your healing is not frequently needed, you can just bring another DPS in your position so that the remaining healers have more to do?

If the healing requisite is low and MP required to support that healing is nearly a non-issue, doesn't your spot become redundant to a healer who heals 2x as much and spends 2x as much mana as you do? If you are frequently experiencing down time and very rarely having trouble with MP, isn't the logical choice to just bring another actual DPS?

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Some fights are solo healerable but this tends to come a little later after people overgear the fight. The extra mitigation the second healer will often bring really helps with the more punishing parts of fights

Thanks!

Are you talking about 8-man content where there are two healers in the party?

In that case, it is like how jamesoakes said. If it is an older fight and people are mostly overgeared, one healer can solo heal the fight.

However, there are times when one healer might die and that secondary healer becomes the new primary healer.

There are fights that can be pretty punishing and if there were only one healer and that healer dies, it'd be extremely difficult to get through the fight.

It's why we also have two tanks. Apart from tank swap mechanics, a second tank is there to ensure that there will be someone who can tank the boss should the first tank be killed.

It is in WoW too, healers are expected to contribute to damage during early stages\nothing to heal of a fight and you can tell when a tank is good with his rotation\itemization and when they don't. However, in WoW you don't pug "real content" and people do this by default.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

There are fights that can be pretty punishing and if there were only one healer and that healer dies, it'd be extremely difficult to get through the fight.

It's why we also have two tanks. Apart from tank swap mechanics, a second tank is there to ensure that there will be someone who can tank the boss should the first tank be killed.

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That seems like a lackadaisical reason to waste a spot on a "extra" healer though.

If your healer dies, maybe it'd be more prudent to consider that a catastrophic mistake leading to a wipe and just move on to the next pull and try again? You'd stand to complete the encounter much more efficiently in the event your healer doesn't make such a mistake, no?

In a world where healers and tanks are optimizing to the point of maximizing DPS, isn't it contradictory to cast a safety net of such extremity for your raid, that of bringing a 2nd healer in case the first (presumedly the only *necessary* one) dies, when they shouldn't?

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

Mechanics skipping mostly. The harder you smash a fight, the less bananas you have to deal with

Also, tanks and healers put out up to two thirds of a dps' damage, which is nothing to scoff at

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I like how you brought this exactly on point XD

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Originally Posted by zipzo

That seems like a lackadaisical reason to waste a spot on a "extra" healer though.

If your healer dies, maybe it'd be more prudent to consider that a catastrophic mistake leading to a wipe and just move on to the next pull and try again? You'd stand to complete the encounter much more efficiently in the event your healer doesn't make such a mistake, no?

In a world where healers and tanks are optimizing to the point of maximizing DPS, isn't it contradictory to cast a safety net of such extremity for your raid, that of bringing a 2nd healer in case the first (presumedly the only *necessary* one) dies, when they shouldn't?

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That's true, but even the best players can make mistakes sometimes. There are very few groups out there that play flawlessly, and most people who play this game (casual to midcore) will make mistakes.

For example, many people had trouble with Shinryu. It wasn't just healers getting killed, but dps and tanks too. Akh morn, the white pillar that accompanies akh morn, moving after diamond dust, and other mechanics caused many players to get knocked out.

Having that safety net allows for groups to make a comeback. And sometimes it works. The sole standing healer will use LB3, everyone gets back in the fight, and it gets cleared.

While it would be ideal that everyone plays optimally, it isn't always going to happen.

Apart from that, there are certain fights that have mechanics exclusive to healers, such as Ifrit Extreme that requires one healer to be far away from the group, leaving the other healer to do all the work for a while.

I heard that caveat to healer dps not being needed is " so long as you are all playing perfectly with max gear". Usually neither are true.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I heard that caveat to healer dps not being needed is " so long as you are all playing perfectly with max gear". Usually neither are true.

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Not really, outside of O3S/O4S where everyone should already be optimal, at least until everyone is geared in full 330/340. Anywhere else, 4 decent to good DPS + 2 average tanks are all that's required to meet enrages. That being said, there's no reason a healer can't DPS when the group you're dealt allows for it.
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As an example, I rarely DPSed on my last Susy EX run because people were constantly getting hit by additional mechanics. We still met enrage despite having multiple DPS die and both the other healer and I doing less damage than we would optimally. Generally speaking, enrage timers outside of Savage are generous. The problem lies in some DPS not taking personal responsibility for doing less damage than they should be able to, at least in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Because like it or not MMOs are about more than only group content with balanced parties,

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You may or may not like it, but it all comes down to "people nowadays are unable to accept that they couldn't progress in the story solo and should group with other people in order to wander in the overworld".

Aka "people nowadays can't be bothered to play a MMO and want to interact the least possible with others".


It has been proved that the group model is an economical failure when at the scale of WoW or FFXIV, but it's not about game balance. Tanks could do 1/10th of the damage DPS do and game balance would be good if DPS took 10 times the damage tank take from auto attacks.