Can Summoners Get Some Of These Combat Changes?

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Of course this only face value math but for a whole 30secs SMNs aren't doing damage. And that's just 30 not 45. But in the end there's no reason why the downtime should be that hard...

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You are also negating most of their kit.

-pet does damage constantly
-you barely ever cast ruin I now. Normal group had BRD or MCH. Between their refresh and your own Lucid Dreaming you have waaaaay too much mana. You spend most of your time casting ruin III now even outside DWT.
-shadowflare (yes I know sch has it also)
-Fester has to be factored in...that is 3 casts during that 30s
-DWT will happen once per minute filling the other "30s window" if you choose to break it down this way.
- 3D if cast correctly gives you more than 25% uptime on ruination buff since DWT resets CD.
-Rouse Enkindle...
-Unlikely to get 0 Ruin IV procs in that time.
-Bahamut twice a minute
-Raid utility and mobility have to be factored in.
-Point is you can't just pull out what skills you want and say oh hey SMN damage is too low. Job has to be looked at as a whole or not at all.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

1. SMN needs to be punished
2. Not needed
4. Not needed.
7. Not needed

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1. Why does Summoner, out of all DPS in the game need to be punished? BRD, SAM, DRG, NIN, BLM, MCH, RDM, none of them get punished like SMN does. Why should MCH be able to have unlimited turrets but SMN loses 2,400MP and Swiftcast to summon eh? Why should Summoner have to punish itself even more using 3 Energy Drains just to have enough MP to Summon then use Energy Drain just to fight? No it's not fine. Don't say "It's fine because don't die in raids", it's simply bad.

2, 4, 7. Based off of the FFLogs link I got from a different forum, SMN is the 2nd worst DPS only above MCH which is a broken job.
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17#b...&spec=Summoner

So it's absolutely needed. Not sure what you're talking about but I didn't see your name as #1 SMN and #1 still kept it 2nd worst :p

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

cut stuff out in math

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I clearly said it was face value math. The point was that after Dreadwrym you have 30secs to not do damage and a SCHs Broil II + DoTs still manage to be stronger than a SMNs basic attacks but it's a DPS.

Also, not everything is a raid. Sheesh. Most groups won't have Refreshes and Mana Shifts going out

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

1. If you let your pet die you need to be punished, this is how they do that. You have swiftcast on a 1 minute GCD if you do happen to let your pet die so it really isn't that punishing...

4. Not needed. Only thing you need sustain for is POTD solo runs. If we get it cool, by no means a priority though. Wasting GCDs on sustain is a dps loss. Manage your pet and if it does die the swiftcast summon.

5. SMN damage isn't the issue. RDM is just better, period. They have too much utility and are too good for progression. RDM utility needs to be hit. Not to mention SMN is punished very heavily for deaths. If they touch anything other than making the gameplay more interesting this is it.

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1: If I had pets that would react the exact same second when I give them a command then yes, them dieing would be a bit of my fault. But they react horribly and if you are in a fight with lots of AOEs thus lots of movements you will probably lose your pet. Also melee pets like Ifrit and Titan are in a way higher danger to get sudden cleaves too. You are also forgetting the cost of MP to resummoning the pet again, which is like 20-25% of our MP? That is quite a lot. And you cant summon Bahamut if the pet is death. I already had it that the pet dies in the exact moment that Bahamut was summoned thus he did not appear. Thats quite the DPS loss too..

4: And even if people only use it in Palace of the death it still had a use unlike that horrible Tri-bind or that healing skill. If they wanted to decrease the amount of skills we had, they could have taken away that tri-bind attack and made it so that the healing skill has a higher outcome if we heal our pet with it. That would be two buttons less and one kinda useless one could have been turned into something useful. Instead they kept the useless one and took a useful one away..even if you only used it in certain situation. Without this things like the palace have become near impossible, the same with solo tanking stuff. (Also without sustain Titan is completely useless too, because he dies too fast, thus aggro resets when you resummon him..so they killed one of our pets too with that change)

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

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You are looking at 1 fight...

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...gregate=amount

That shows all savage fights played at 95th percentile.

They are within 20 dps on average with rdm who are also low. Yet rdm is the most prominent in groups work O4S down. Also because rdm utility is so good, most of your highly skilled casters are playing RDM. This is the main reason I myself switched this tier and scews this data in RDMs favor. You won't get BLM level damage because they are the SAM if casters. No utility only dps. Think before you blindly look at numbers.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

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so basically you want SMN to do more damage than SAM, have almost no dps loss due to movement, have the best AoE dps in the game, and better utility than everyone but maybe rdm? The meta would be bring 4 SMN with these changes...

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

snip.

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Well... Looks like you don't know nothing about smn.
If you ever ever know the rotation, you'd know that you are delaying your contagion over, over and over again. How kind of the "utiliy" is that? That's not even that good for compos with 2 casters.
And about sustain. Well if you ever did A8s (probably not) you'd know that you HAD to use it everyintermission, because Garuda's life were around 20%. I don't know you but rather use an ability to heal my pet by 400 mp instead of summoning him again wasting 3 gcds/ 2400 mana.
So if we have movement? You just said before we now pass the most of time spamming ruin 3.
The "movement" and the "utility" we have is not worth by RDMs doing 300 dps more than us and BLMs 500.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

You are looking at 1 fight...

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...gregate=amount

That shows all savage fights played at 95th percentile.

They are within 20 dps on average with rdm who are also low. Yet rdm is the most prominent in groups work O4S down. Also because rdm utility is so good, most of your highly skilled casters are playing RDM. This is the main reason I myself switched this tier and scews this data in RDMs favor. You won't get BLM level damage because they are the SAM if casters. No utility only dps. Think before you blindly look at numbers.

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You look at a very specific number that has SMN at a higher place. Put it on Max Percentile and it's just as I said. SMN is second to last. Also, you switched to RDM because it's better than SMN obviously. More damage and utility. :rolleyes: Nice! If most of the skilled casters are playing RDM as you say, maybe there's a problem?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

so basically you want SMN to do more damage than SAM, have almost no dps loss due to movement, have the best AoE dps in the game, and better utility than everyone but maybe rdm? The meta would be bring 4 SMN with these changes...

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Sorry but there is no way those changes I suggested could close a 700+ dps gap, no even close. At the very best it would push it right behind RDM.

Seriously though, do you use RDM or SMN in Savage. I mean I know the answer but since you think SMN is in such good shape and all......

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

You look at a very specific number that has SMN at a higher place. Put it on Max Percentile and it's just as I said. SMN is second to last. Also, you switched to RDM because it's better than SMN obviously. More damage and utility. :rolleyes: Nice! If most of the skilled casters are playing RDM as you say, maybe there's a problem?

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95th percentile is what I use because it is the best to judge actually judge where classes sit. And I for 2 reasons. 1 SMN is boring as hell to play after the changes, which has nothing to do with their dps. 2, RDM utility is OP as hell for progression. With a RDM you can literally raise 4 times in a row with no issues and no long cast times, esp if you have a BRD or MCH in the group. It it OP for prog only based on that one thing because you get more exposure to a fight during prob out of every pull, decreasing your pull count for kills. I would have thought long and hard between BLM and SMN. If RDM utility doesn't change they will either be nerfed to where they aren't viable or they will always be the choice for prog. Plain and simple. That is not a SMN issue, it is a RDM issue. SMN could do several hundred dps more and I would still bring RDM over SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Sorry but there is no way those changes I suggested could close a 700+ dps gap, no even close. At the very best it would push it right behind RDM.

Seriously though, do you use RDM or SMN in Savage. I mean I know the answer but since you think SMN is in such good shape and all......

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Are you kidding me, they do roughly the same dps as rdm on average right now.... You want add another DoT that does a bit less than the other 2 over the fight, buff Shadow Flare by 50%, make ruin III even more spammable though ruin I, II, III, and DWT changes while buffing it by 33%, buff ruin IV by 25%, take any mana loss from movement away again making Ruin III more spammable, buff pet damage by 40%, both lengthen DWT and make it more frequent through shortened Aetherflow, buff Bahamut's damage through procs, buff the his enkindle by making it cast once at slightly more potency than 2 do at the moment...

Oh and make Devotion better than most buffs in the game when we still have party buffs from Ifrit and Garuda, and Res ability, while giving us a raid wide crit buff too? Do some math please. You are 15% or less behind SAM dps depending on the fight. These changes obviously add up to more than that.