Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Except that yoshi also said during a live letter
that he knows people are gonna kill him if
he was to remove cleric stance now.

So I highly doubt they will remove it.

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A friend and I had this discussion, the fact is he honestly can't remove it at all. Not without either a major boost to healer damage spells, an open world nerf to monster HP, or risk even less people willing to try to progress a healer at the start. I don't mean stance dancing in raids, dungeons or whatever. I mean progression via the MSQ. For the solo bits and quests, being at level and in right ILVL gear, monsters can already now take a painfully long time to kill, even as a dps class. Now imagine that as a healer, with no CS and decreased damage output.

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Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

"Fairness" isn't giving everyone the same thing. That would be very unfair to be quite frank. Fairness is determined by giving ppl what they deserve or need. Healers need damage spells for virtually all content in this game. DPS do not need an excess of healing spells because during solo content their damage output (when rotations are done correctly) is high enough that they are in no real danger of dying. In group content, the healers take care of them.

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So it's "Fairness" to make a healer as capable at damage output as a DPS, with the ability to take care of(other, now)DPS in group content? Get out.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

On that logic this thread is an assumption, removing cleric stance WILL NOT increase the amount of people playing healers, it will only decrease it. I seen lots of people say here and there they will not play it if you take away clearic stance and any hit to DPS because healing has too much downtime in this game and boring. That quote I .

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I dont see how those which I include myself in that who must dps as a healer would get upset if the damage was just based off of mind, I mean unless you have a meter u would literally have no idea how much difference in dps. We are talkin about very few healers that can do over 1000 k damage and full time heal thats not ur average healer so we should keep cleric the way it is just for a few niche healers and forget all the others? Even for hardcore raiders do you not think that if healers could damage and not be in cleric stance that it wouldnt help the team out even more so than them juggling cleric?

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Originally Posted by Capriana

This is an argument and I would love to hear arguments against as to why this would not be a good thing or how they could manage it so the healer does not become OP.

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I think it might work, but I think there are a couple of ugly downsides.

Probably the worst downside is a lower amount of skill required to play any healer class. Cleric's Stance, to be properly used, requires knowing a fight well, and also having a reasonably accurate assessment of your tank's skill and durability. That mental component would evaporate completely if CS were to be removed. In addition to blurring the difference between bad healers and good healers, it would make healer classes significantly less interesting to me personally.

There are other downsides, too. Removing Cleric's Stance would make it easier to deal damage, but with that would likely come increasing expectations on healer damage output - which is already a point of friction for existing healers. I don't know that more pressure in this department would lead to more healers.

That said, I wonder - why, exactly, do we need more healers? I think your stated goal isn't exactly the right one. True, there's an imbalance between DD classes and healer / tank classes right now, leading to long queue times, and that is by any measure a problem that must be solved. However, rather than tinkering constantly with healer / tank classes in an effort to boost their numbers, wouldn't it make more sense to simply move to 5-person parties for standard dungeons, and maybe 3x tank / healer, 5x DD setups for 8-person Duties? To be sure, it would require a bit of work on SE's part, but once it was done, it would be DONE - with no downsides whatsoever, and no changes required for any particular jobs. That, to me, seems like a better direction in, and it wouldn't require more healers.

I doubt it would make healers who don't DPS on principle (fucking lol) start to DPS more, although removing Cleric and having damage scale via MND wouldn't be a bad idea, it would remove some of the fun of being a healer for me, I enjoy swapping in and out of Cleric, one change I would make is that when you click it off, it goes on the GCD so you don't put it on accidentally again.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I dont see how those which I include myself in that who must dps as a healer would get upset if the damage was just based off of mind, I mean unless you have a meter u would literally have no idea how much difference in dps. We are talkin about very few healers that can do over 1000 k damage and full time heal thats not ur average healer so we should keep cleric the way it is just for a few niche healers and forget all the others? Even for hardcore raiders do you not think that if healers could damage and not be in cleric stance that it wouldnt help the team out even more so than them juggling cleric?

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I personally would not care but the person said we should do less damage without clearic but the downtime difference will offset it. (this is where I start caring about the statement) I can tell you in many cases this is not true.

If they take away clearic stance we better be doing the same or more then before basing it off mind. Doing less will def turn some people off.

In the end, the " Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers." will not likely work, it will most likely drive more people to stop playing healer, then the amount in brings in.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I dont see how those which I include myself in that who must dps as a healer would get upset if the damage was just based off of mind, I mean unless you have a meter u would literally have no idea how much difference in dps. We are talkin about very few healers that can do over 1000 k damage and full time heal thats not ur average healer so we should keep cleric the way it is just for a few niche healers and forget all the others? Even for hardcore raiders do you not think that if healers could damage and not be in cleric stance that it wouldnt help the team out even more so than them juggling cleric?

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I've been healing through all the savage raids and coil and such, but I've always thought that the only interesting part about healer dps has been cleric stance. The damaging spells healers have are really straight forward and basic, but cleric stance temporarily neutering your healing power makes it a bit risky which is what makes it more interesting to do.

But honestly, I just don't want the healing role in this game to continue moving towards filling up even more time with damage spells.

To be honest I wouldn't mind, say, a Crusader Stance that turns your healing spells into dps spells (basically, Kiribu from Amdapor Hard). Maybe remove Cleric Stance, and replace it with Crusader Stance, with the upshot being an increase not in damage, but in, say, Accuracy, as was suggested earlier in this thread. Mind can be tweaked to increase a healer's DPS output to roughly equivalent to what we have now for DPS numbers with Cleric Stance, or just give healers a trait at the level they would get Cleric Stance to increase DPS by 10%.

At that point you wouldn't -need- to Stance Dance for maximum efficiency, but it would provide a little incentive to do so just for something different, maintaining the challenge, and providing a benefit for the players who enjoy Cleric Stance as is; the highly skilled achievers.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

I've been healing through all the savage raids and coil and such, but I've always thought that the only interesting part about healer dps has been cleric stance. The damaging spells healers have are really straight forward and basic, but cleric stance temporarily neutering your healing power makes it a bit risky which is what makes it more interesting .

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But this is so contradicting of how people play the game the fact is nobody wants to fail nobody wants to lose in this game. And guess what if the healer fs up then more than likely you are gona lose and fail. So the fact is that cleric can mess up a run that cant be denied regardless of how skilled you are, and at the end of the day nobody wants to fail everyone wants to beat the content their doing.

People are asking for more heal intense instances but yet if healers cant met those they will be the same ones complaining about how healers suck when its really that everyone doesnt play on the same level. Im not exactly for removing cleric , but I could careless about the stance dancing I just think it would be even better to be able to use my spells and they do real damage without being in cleric and maybe they can figure out another way to make cleric fun for those whom need it.

But every healer here can say that a run has been ruined with cleric somewhere in the picture if not then Id think they where lying, but im not here to call anyone out tho. Allowing you to go from doing good damage to instantly healing without the cleric gap in between I believe would allow SE to make even more challenging content in the long run. Risk lead to wipes and last time I checked pf thats the last thing people want in their parties.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But this is so contradicting of how people play the game the fact is nobody wants to fail nobody wants to lose in this game.

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You never met premade troll pts that fail on purpose to troll people? so this is also false. Clearic stance does not make runs fail, it is more often tanks not using CDs is why stuff like that fails. Heck even in mass pulls in expert, like doing the full 3 groups at the start of wall thing, the tank better have that immune CD ready. I kicked a tank before that has harassing me over not using it the other day.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But every healer here can say that a run has been ruined with cleric somewhere in the picture if not then Id think they where lying,

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No it has not. Do you see me posting clearic stance needs to be removed because a toxic player enters a DF with it on, claims to never use it and flames someone for pointing out they are trying to heal with it on while saying it was never on? That is not a cleric stance issue.

I can't post anymore on this subject, I need save post quota for other things.