My issues with PvP

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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It's funny because the only thing in my statement directed to you individually was the last sentence. Everything else was a general statement. However, I'm not sure why you took offense to it though, I didn't say anything mean about you or your character and overall remained on topic about my opinion on the logic behind the issues of PvP.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Right, if it's so great like you say it is, then where is everyone? I'll tell you where. They're too busy in games like DotA or League which also have a large skill gap and start out rough, yet, they're doing just fine. A learning curve isn't the issue if Valve and Riot can pull it off. This PvP in this game having a lot of depth is irelivant if nobody wants to play it.

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You underestimate the severity of the skill gaps in this game. I believe the PvP in this game is great and I invite to try this game that isn't primarily pvp, but has taken strides to be fun and different.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

You underestimate the severity of the skill gaps in this game. I believe the PvP in this game is great and I invite to try this game that isn't primarily pvp, but has taken strides to be fun and different.

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You keep telling me that this PvP is fun, but haven't actually given me any evidence as to why.

The fact that SE had to get everyone dragging their feet into it with this Garo event proves otherwise. I believe that if a PvP truly is fun, you wouldn't have to use events like the Garo event to get people to even consider trying it. One of my favorite games of all time was TF2. That game never offered rewards for regular play besides a drop system nobody cared about, but I can say I've logged over 1000 hours into it. There are plenty of other examples out there as well.

The skill gap isn't the cause of the issue, it's only a symptom of the problem. If you get more people to play, you'll have all sorts of skill levels playing.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

You keep telling me that this PvP is fun, but haven't actually given me any evidence as to why.

The fact that SE had to get everyone dragging their feet into it with this Garo event proves otherwise. I believe that if a PvP truly is fun, you wouldn't have to use events like the Garoevent to get people to even consider trying it. One of my favorite games of all time was TF2. That game never offered rewards for regular play besides a drop system nobody cared about, but I can say I've logged over 1000 hours into it. There are plenty of other examples out there as well.

The skill gap isn't the cause of the issue, it's only a symptom of the problem. If you get more people to play, you'll have all sorts of skill levels playing.

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People do not play it because it is poorly deigned. I actually do enjoy PvP in ffxiv, even on the weakest job for it. Just because I enjoy it though does not mean I can't call it out for what it is. We need more PvP maps, we need more care for balance issues, healing amounts, healing abilities damage taken issues and some jobs having too much CC (PLD) (Why is there a job in pvp with a stun that last so long and spammable????) while others have none (SCH). Address bust and constant damage, a lot needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by Atrayl

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1. Healing in PVP is not too strong. Yes, a good healer can heal through 6+ PUG dps if they dont know what they are doing. However, all it takes is one good dps to burst down a good healer. The answer is simple and many people have suggested this - be that good dps. When you add more than one good healer to the mix you will need more than one good dps, which is one reason why healing seems OP. A dps needs to learn how to peel, how to burst dps, and how to interrupt healers so your fellow dps can finish someone to be useful in PVP.

From my experience, PVP leans more heavily on good dps than other portions of the game. In Feast for example - idc how good the tank and healer is, bad dps will cost you games almost every time. Unfortunately for us, dps are the most populated job group and have the highest proportion of low skilled players. That makes healing appear OP on the surface. (Its been that way since all the way back to Wolves Den btw)

2. The Ice is there for the people who aren't good enough to kill players. They can still contribute to the win. We had less RNG reliant modes in the past and they weren't popular with the casuals. Its just the cost of having more people to play against.

3. We still have the chat in FL, use it if your team is being stupid. Sound confident and usually some people will listen. Accept that dumb people and tunnel vision exist.

4. This needs to stay. Battle highs and fevers will generally win you the game even if RNG screws you. Its a reward for doing actual PVP. If its to the point where risking death means the enemy will win, then they are already going to beat you.

5. This exists in pretty much all games that have PVP. Id rather not wait longer for ques. Besides that, one stellar player can sway the battlefield the same way a premade can.

6. Ninja cap bases, kill enemy healers outside their spawn while they are trying to get back to the main force, contribute the most dps to an ice, scout properly and early cap a tome, kill the dps that had battle fever going, tank lb save from a cometeor, push a group of enemies off a cliff when you are outnumbered, etc. Theres lots of ways to leave your individual mark on the battlefield. Just need to be creative and good at what you do.

If your looking for competent PVP players, there are plenty on our server. Id be more than happy to play FL or Feast with you. There are also plenty of good PVPers that hang out at the dueling arena at the Den who would probably be delighted to run any mode with you if your getting tired of Garo PUGs.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

However, all it takes is one good dps to burst down a good healer.

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More correctly: All it takes is one good DPS to burst down a bad healer.

A burst rotation generally takes around 2-3 seconds after setting it up and the healer may not hit Lustrate/Dignity/Tetra on the target in those seconds because otherwise your burst will fail. Since purify is a thing and the most a DPS can stun for with a single ability is 3 seconds, you'll not be able to prevent them from hitting that button for so long without help. You will need someone, either to supplement your damage, to force their Purify in advance or to force their instant CDs - You can test that quite well in the dueling area nowadays.

In a real game, naturally, you'll frequently get help from another DPS to create those conditions. And the healer will frequently get help from the tank to prevent a kill anyway. It's why it's frequently better not to focus the healer in the first place, but rather CC them and burst someone else out of line of sight or while the healer is sleeping/stunned/knocked away and rooted. I wager it's less viable in team queue since other people can purify the healer as well, but in solo queue, that used to be a fairly rare thing from my experiences.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

It's funny because the only thing in my statement directed to you individually was the last sentence.

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And the rest implied that whoever doesn't like the state of things simply didn't learn how to play, which is an indirect ad hominem towards anyone for whom that condition is true. Something you do again when you say:"PvP in this game is actually quite fun for those that take the time to learn it.".
To put the sentence in logical terms:"If you put the time to learn how to play, then PvP is fun."
Formalized: A=>B, or from A follows B.
Now, the table for a logical implication looks like this:
A - B - A=>B
T - T - T
T - F - F
F - T - T
F - F - T
(F standing for false and T for true respectively)
If the implication is true, then not having fun and having learned it isn't possible, because in that case the implication is false. If the first part of the implication is false, the rest doesn't matter, the implication is always true (Logic is fun like that!). The only case where you can not have fun and the implication is true is when you didn't take the time to learn it (False, False). This leads to the logical conclusion above, an indirect ad hominem that people who don't like the status quo need to git gut.

Now, to take up my own advice, I'll put it in spoilers to not take up too much space.

That aside: I'm still curious what "We" know about me and my gaming habits. You unfortunately didn't quite answer that and only alleged I took offense.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Also you missed a point of mine, if we where to program the game your way, it would just be 8 brds vs 8 brds in a contest who can kill who the fastest in under a second.

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TBH that sounds a lot more fun to me than what we have now. Again, I didn't miss your point and I get what you're trying to say, again, I still disagree. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

A lot of the issues people have in PvP is at (very) low elo and against a healer that clearly doesn't belong there. Now this game's rating and matchmaking is in question because not only are the varying skill levels too wide, in Feast the people higher on the spectrum can't direct/teach their team. Frontlines has no matchmaking other then picking people from a hat, so skill levels are all over the place. Addtionally, Frontlines and Feast have mechanics that makes healing even harder than it already is, such as battle high/fever, adrenaline, culling stacks, and heavy medal stacks.

PvP focused games tend to have a legitimate matchmaking system (or atleast close) that places nearly equally skilled players together/against each other. Imagine getting placed against a diamond rated player(s) in your silver/gold tier in your LoL/OW/etc. ranked game and getting absolutely outplayed at every interaction. That's what happens in this game repeatedly and one of the reasons people find themselves disliking PvP.

Majority of this game's playerbase prefer to avoid adversity/challenge and thus ultimately dislike PvP because that is exactly what it is. It's not so much the PvP is terrible, but the way varied skill levels are matched, the width of the skill gaps, and general populace mentality to the nature of PvP.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

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Since when does one have to give evidence to an opinion on what they find to be fun?

I don't agree that healing is overpowered but it can be frustrating that it requires some coordination to take one down, and god forbid if there's another healer healing him, you'd may as well not bother.

As always, premades are what's sucking the fun out of PvP, I feel like the Garo event has just turned Frontlines into a free wins for them. This is especially true when they ignore objectives just to farm up for battle highs, looking at you Chaos data center.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

TBH that sounds a lot more fun to me than what we have now. Again, I didn't miss your point and I get what you're trying to say, again, I still disagree. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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I do not think anyone will agree with you that PvP should be a one class game.

You only think healing is OP because you do not know what it is like to heal, or know how strong burst rotations are, when properly played. Hell I saw someone take damage before, I hit Lustrate, and they where dead before it went off. DPS is more of a problem then healing is, along with slow processing speeds on the server end, and melee LB.