How would they fix PLD 4.0?

Can't edit on mobile. It would add choice and decision making (something I know your fond of) and certainly distinguish an average tank from a great one. In my description above, playing well means a drk knowing when to dark side the appropriate ability will perform far better than one not managing their mp correctly or not using dark side enough.

I've stated before I don't know what sort of gimmick they could add for paladin and I still don't. But yes, I believe that it should also get its own gameplay gimmick while also getting rid of oaths.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Again, make stances warriors thing.

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I won't suggest to make "stances" a WAR thing. However, I can fully agree that DPS-stance should be a WAR thing. The other tanks should have something else. DRK already has Dark Side and Dark Arts which makes it's gameplay unique enough between the three tanks.

For me, PLD should not have a DPS stance like Sword Oath. Lorewise, PLD is a protector, a Gladiator who has been trained in the arts of Conjury. Therefore, its other stance should reflect that. As I said earlier, being able to transfer some of its buff would fit well the "protector" part. As for healing, I just thought of one easy thing. Instead of Clemency healing back a portion to the PLD, it could simply apply a Galvanize effect. This way, you wouldn't "waste" MP by casting it on a target that your healer has already healed.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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I actually finally got the hang of the stance dancing thing for warrior and I sort of feel like the tank vs dps stance gameplay could be expanded upon to make the gameplay even better. Definitely agree with you on drk and it comes back to my original point, I don't think every tank should have the toggle between (for lack of a better term that I can think of right now) tank and non-tank mode. In addition, I think by making the stance dance gameplay a warrior focused thing it could differentiate the tanks more and make them feel more unique while playing them.

I like your pld idea but I don't know if it necessarily needs that extra defense, I was thinking on something that enhances it's offense while in keeping with the protector theme of the class and I came up with a rough idea for a mechanic. Giving pld some sort of resource that it builds while fitting in with the whole earth aspect of the conjury thing you mentioned. So it would look something like this:

Earthen protector: Paladins can now block magic attacks, in addition, the paladin generates a resource when taking damage, taking damage while using Cover, and/or blocking attacks. Once it reaches maximum it makes the pld's next shield bash cost no TP, deal double (triple?) damage, and creates a shield that absorbs for the amount of damage dealt.

Granted, it's similar to a warrior's stance stacks, but the mechanics around generating it and what it does is very different and provides a different sort of payoff.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I like your pld idea but I don't know if it necessarily needs that extra defense

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PLD surely don't need the extra defense. But since the meta tends to favor using tank stance as little as possible, it would give an interesting synergy that a PLD OT will allow for even less tank stance time for the MT. If the MT can stay out of tank stance more, he can maintain a highest DPS, to compensate for the native lower DPS of PLD.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Granted, it's similar to a warrior's stance stacks

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WAR is not the only job that build a ressource by its rotation, so it's always an option. However, if it's tied to blocking or taking damage, it still cement PLD as a "MT job", which is part of its issue, whereas transfering buffs (Defensive and Offensive) or having a barrier-heal can be useful on MT and OT.

Another reason behind the Galvanize effect is the concern of the role-skills. We can assume that the cross-class skills will disappear entirely, so PLD might lose Stoneskin with this. By reworking Clemency, it would serve as a stoneskin replacement while making it much more useful.

And, on a last note, I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

Except that tanks actually swap as much as possible to get the most benefit, in the best speedruns. If you see a12s, there are 4 swaps from start till finish. This is currently the best optimization that pretty much kills your idea on PLD, mainly because it's never needed and won't have much use.

Aside from that, the easiest is obviously to rework PLD's kit to allow more and bring its DPS to match with the rest.

Let's do a simulation on a12s with your idea. The general idea is to let WAR tank the most, WAR has to stack a lot of CDs back to back for Heat tank buster. 1st phase to add phase generally no problem and requires no further help from PLD. The problem starts from after adds till the end, WAR has to save Vengeance and all the other small CDs for 1st stasis and Holmgang for 2nd stasis. During timegate WAR will only have ToB and RI, very unlike to survive the tank add so he has to tank boss. Vengeance and other small CDs will be up on 1st Inception and Holmgang on 2nd Inception before killing Alex Prime. It seems all nice and good EXCEPT that PLD loses a good chunk of damage from Shield Swipe every now and then. PLD can also tank a good portion of the tank busters with frequent swaps for more proc damage, ie. Stacking Rampart and Sentinel on 1st stasis tank buster and swap WAR for HG on 2nd stasis. Then there is DRK being better than PLD by a miles in a12s mainly because without Reprisal, the big difference is their DPS gap, Reprisal makes it better. Skin Wall DM slightly better than Rampart Sentinel. 2 small differences big enough are DRK will have Skin DM VS PLD with Rampart, during timegate. DRK will have Wall DM on 1st Inception VS PLD with Sentinel if they tank boss during Timegate. PLD overall needs more help to survive which doesnt allow healers to DPS.

TLDR: your idea doesn't do much on a real situation.

TLDR2: if you aren't into absolute optimization, PLD is fine. It can clear just fine and you can optimize with it. DRK is considered better on the upper realm of the top speedrun mostly due to the maximum damage output potential. Same goes to WHM and casters no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

If you see a12s, there are 4 swaps from start till finish. This is currently the best optimization that pretty much kills your idea on PLD, mainly because it's never needed and won't have much use.

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Can you explain why there are so much swaps ?

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Aside from that, the easiest is obviously to rework PLD's kit to allow more and bring its DPS to match with the rest.

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Yes, the easiest and the more bland...what's the point of having three tanks if they mitigates the same and do the same damage ? DRK and PLD already plays almost the same when it comes to mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Can you explain why there are so much swaps ?

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The swaps are done so that they can do the most damage on the given situations.

WAR will have HGs ready for alternate tank busters and DRK can stack all CDs on the other alternate. DRK gets procs as well.

I do recommend you to search the vid on youtube if you are curious.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

During timegate WAR will only have ToB and RI, very unlike to survive the tank add so he has to tank boss.

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Does he need CD to tank the boss during that phase ? Because if he doesn't you could have he PLD tanking the boss with no CD, and transfering one CD onto the WAR.

Keep in mind that the idea is also to make offensive buff transferable. So, when the WAR enter a burst damage phase, you could give him FoF, since 30% of his damage his higher than 30% of yours.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

TLDR: your idea doesn't do much on a real situation.

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If you end in a situation where you need two "main tanks", this system is indeed not fully usable...But it would still be better than having PLD lose several skills when in the OT spot. Yet, I don't think all "real situations" requires that much swapping.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Does he need CD to tank the boss during that phase ? Because if he doesn't you could have he PLD tanking the boss with no CD, and transfering one CD onto the WAR.

Keep in mind that the idea is also to make offensive buff transferable. So, when the WAR enter a burst damage phase, you could give him FoF, since 30% of his damage his higher than 30% of yours.

If you end in a situation where you need two "main tanks", this system is indeed not fully usable...But it would still be better than having PLD lose several skills when in the OT spot. Yet, I don't think all "real situations" requires that much swapping.

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There's a tank buster during the timegate phase. I don't understand how this cd transfer works in your plan, but if the other tank goes inside the timegate they're teleported far away from the main arena, so you can't even see them.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

There's a tank buster during the timegate phase. I don't understand how this cd transfer works in your plan, but if the other tank goes inside the timegate they're teleported far away from the main arena, so you can't even see them.

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So, I suppose you'd have to use it just before the tanks goes through the gate.
Again, I'm not saying that this gimmick could be fully used in every situation. But it still can open some new tactics.
It's like having some bosses where you can't land an attack from the back, it doesn't make MNK, DRG and NIN worthless.

Not all fights requires both tanks to have a full mitigation CD rotation.