tanks not using cooldowns?

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Originally Posted by rockint

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

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There is, you are just not using it.

And then you are blaming the failure on others.

I didn't think this was a problem.
Then I ran a leveling roulette yesterday and ran into a healer who, after the first pull, expressed that they were flabbergasted I used not just one, but two cooldowns!
It was really funny for a second, and then really sad.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

I didn't think this was a problem.
Then I ran a leveling roulette yesterday and ran into a healer who, after the first pull, expressed that they were flabbergasted I used not just one, but two cooldowns!
It was really funny for a second, and then really sad.

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From time to time I will thank thank tanks in chat for using CD, just to remind them it is a good thing. The amount of tanks that don't use them is nuts. Usually all you can do is not comm them when they don't. The few times I've brought it up, the tank acts like a derp, and the dps don't understand. When a tank runs off before SS and doesn't use CD, they get no love from me.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

...and nothing of what you're saying means all healers are like that, or that it's impossible to dps as a healer without it becoming the situation you're talking about.

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I'm not saying that they're all like that or that it's impossible to DPS without letting your tank drop... I run with a healer that does great DPS, and keeps me up perfectly fine. Someone like him, I'll use cooldowns early so that he can get some extra damage in, because I know that if something happens and I drop, he'll get me back to full, so those cooldowns don't have to be used as defensively. But with a pug where I'm consistently sitting below 50%, my cooldowns are going to be more for emergencies.

They're not intended to just blindly use them on every pull so that your healer can do more damage. With a good healer, you can get away with it... But when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

Well the point of defensive cooldowns is to prevent dropping to dangerous levels/death in the first place sooo... I'm not quite sure I follow that logic.

You're never wasting cooldowns unless you purposely didn't use one for a tankbuster or without anything attacking you, both of which requires a certain degree of mental deficiency to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

I dislike most duty finder tanks. They're not receptive to constructive, politely worded critiques, they don't use good judgement, and their situational awareness is often poor. The solution is to become a tank yourself and never deal with their ilk again. Want to be a big man in your free company? Popular with strangers? Want to get your daily dungeons knocked out of the way at a pace of your choosing? Want to get a group for the most popular content at a speed that'll make you say "wuuuuuut?" Choose the path of the meat shield. Jooooooin us.

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Then you have to deal with the idiot DPS who only use their damage combo, and never apply any debuffs / dots, or who run away from any wide AoE instead of stunning and carrying on with DPS.

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Originally Posted by rockint

I'm not saying that they're all like that or that it's impossible to DPS without letting your tank drop... I run with a healer that does great DPS, and keeps me up perfectly fine. Someone like him, I'll use cooldowns early so that he can get some extra damage in, because I know that if something happens and I drop, he'll get me back to full, so those cooldowns don't have to be used as defensively. But with a pug where I'm consistently sitting below 50%, my cooldowns are going to be more for emergencies.

They're not intended to just blindly use them on every pull so that your healer can do more damage. With a good healer, you can get away with it... But when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

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What is an emergency?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Well the point of defensive cooldowns is to prevent dropping to dangerous levels/death in the first place sooo... I'm not quite sure I follow that logic.

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Using cooldowns during a low damage phase so the healer can DPS, and using cooldowns to counter a period of high damage are two different things. Using those cooldowns when your healer is getting behind because there's a lot of group damage is different from using them early.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Using cooldowns during a low damage phase so the healer can DPS, and using cooldowns to counter a period of high damage are two different things. Using those cooldowns when your healer is getting behind because there's a lot of group damage is different from using them early.

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There is some truth to this, as I believe we have said. Using cooldowns when you know you're not going to be taking a lot of damage is a little silly.

However, if you are able to predict incoming damage, then you will maximize the effectiveness of your cooldowns by using them ahead of the incoming damage. With only a few exceptions, defensive cooldowns are meant to head off the damage you're taking. If you only use a cooldown after you have taken critical amounts of damage, then you have saved it for nothing.

Be intelligent with your cooldowns, yes, but first be proactive. Using Sentinel and Sheltron when you've already eaten an unmitigated tankbuster down to 10% of your HP is foolish, when you could have instead used them ahead of time and only been brought down to only 53% HP. This logic applies to white damage. You need to plan for when to use it, yes, but long duration cooldowns (e.g. Foresight, Awareness + Bulwark, Rampart, etc.) are designed to mitigate white damage, and make you require less healing. Saving long duration cooldowns when you are taking even moderate incoming damage (read: all bosses, the start of normal-sized trash pulls, etc.) is poor tanking.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

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No one will disagree with this statement by itself but your examples have shown you either don't know the strategy or have trouble outlining it. You have advocated using vengeance at 10% HP which would be better exemplified by using holmgang followed by equilibrium or inner beast (or both) and vengeance used earlier to slow the damage intake going from 90-10%.

Secondly you the example of saving cooldowns for tank busters. Again totally appropriate but you only mention using them after the buster hits. Again same as above. If what I'm saying makes sense please start articulating your argument in a way that conveys your understanding in a more thorough manner.