A mid-core content for mid-core players.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

What Thayos said is actually pretty normal for a lot of raiders using ventrilo/teamspeak though. Raiding throughout WoW, Swtor, and a few other games as a raider or a raid leader, we always designated a person as a "caller" that called out the main mechanics to watch out for....

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What Thayos said is that in a party of 8 people for example, 3 DO mechanics and others bring muscles. So only 3 people actually have the resposability of the entire run. What you suggest is like what happen in raids also in FFXIV, that there are people who CALLS mechanics for others but ALL MUST DO those mechanics, it's like what happen when me and my static cleared T9 Savage, I was the one that called the last phase's divebombs, but all known what to do.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Hey I offered you advice the next time you hyperbole. Don't be so down about it. We all make mistakes.

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"I still can't take the hint that I missed the example"

It's ok. If you try real hard you can process this concept better next time.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Neat idea, but 2 things I don't like:

Fix the tome requirements because getting a bad group or someone who just happens to have crappy internet decides to go "POOF" on a boss fight instantly causes your run to end badly. bye 500 tomes that could've went toward my relic :/ Maybe use Amber drops from levequests? Idk, anything but tomes, like seriously X(

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The tomes' fee is only an example for keeping away trolls but it can be changed with another feature that has the same aim. I think however that's a pretty good feature, you pay 300-500 tomes but every elite quest cleared gives you 100-150tomes back.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Also if boss difficulty is going to be primal tier then it can' be similar to EX modes. Why? Because EX modes have mechanics that could instanly wipe your party if you don't know whats coming. Boss casts "Waffle Sprinkles", fairly long cast, little do you know it petrifies anyone looking and increases damage taken, your party wipes on the next move, Lightning Squall which targets the healer which is a stack move, nuked. Maybe lower the difficulty to hard mode primals but also giving previous enemy mobs on the lower floors some of those mechanics it uses so the party will have a general idea before going into the fight.

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I'll remain with my idea of EX like final boss. The content it's not meant for a sure clear, if you put an hard mode it will be for sure a 100% clear after the first kill. It must be challenging and giving you satisfaction. The last boss it's a bonus, you do not have to clear the content to have rewards, they're all over the content. And also, after the first group will clear it (like Elysium do with Alex Savage), there will be videos and guides that will explain the fight to everyone. As I said it's a content that must last till the end of the game, if the first clear arrives after three months from the release of the content it won't be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Agreeing with some of the other comments, your idea of midcore and hardcore are pretty....awkward. Would you lower it if you didn't play with your current group and only allowed pugs? I'm pretty sure you'd change your mind.

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Casual = contents puggable also with monkeys. (24man raids, all roulettes)

Mid-core = contents puggable with good and organized players. (Trial EX)

Hard-core = contents not puggable on release, where you must have a static to have a chance to clear them. (Alexander Savage)

Maybe I have an old-school-mmo midcore idea.

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Originally Posted by Vieilocean

stuff

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A3S destroyed statics left and right, it caused people to switch servers to find replacements for their statics or to find brand new statics, even months after Savage was released. Also read what you said "80-90% clear rate cause they are pro" that means midcore players would have at least 79% clear rate, if a midcore group had 79% per your example A3S wouldn't be as hellacious as is. You claim Titan EX was midcore? Titan EX was one of the hardest fights next to Ifrit EX, because of the mechanics, those mechanics can still wipe players who miss one step even if they cleared it X number of times. Not a single EX was able to done in DF on release, it relied on PF and they still have a higher clear rate, Thordan was cleared day one on EX on Jenova by multiple parties, impart on the fact the fight is entirely all of 2.5-3.0 and even Sephirot was cleared in the first few days by many groups, and it's considered harder then THEX. Your content isn't designed for midcore groups at all, the moment people start wiping on your content and get kicked out of the instance is the moment it dies. Your content doesn't allow learning so even high end groups that wipe won't even do it because they can't jump right back into the fight. That time spent trying to understand that one fight and having to redo all the other fights before hand, would be better off being applied to the current raid or gearing up side jobs in many players eyes. It is a train wreck.

I like the idea behind this, it'd need a bit more fleshing out but on paper, it sounds like what I'd HOPED Diadem would be when I very first heard about that! I'd play this content happily!

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Originally Posted by Vidrian

What about a defend the castle-themed instance? Not an entire zone, and not the usual 'go there, kill everything, go deeper, kill everything' but something like defend This city or castle, where there are up to 10 paths with different bosses and interiors (ranging from a dungeon to alleys to inside the main keep) with their own rewards, but where killing certain mobs or talking to a certain npc triggers a certain path?

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Kinda like the hamlet defense stuff from the 1.x series? I'd dig this too.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I like the idea behind this, it'd need a bit more fleshing out but on paper, it sounds like what I'd HOPED Diadem would be when I very first heard about that! I'd play this content happily!



Kinda like the hamlet defense stuff from the 1.x series? I'd dig this too.

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Originally Posted by Vieilocean

The underlying idea it's pretty interesting. Nothing to add here.



1- A content of 8 players is more then enough. Too many people will be difficult to find.
2- What kind of gear? If it has a level-progression's rewards, the mid-core content idea it's totally killed.
3- The idea behind a content based on mechanics that requires specific jobs it's risky. Devs must create mechanics (paths) with equal difficulty, otherwise people will choose always the easier one. Also, mechanics imply coordination within the party, so the content requires more overall balancing cause you can risk to create another hard-core raid (Alexander) if the mechanics are too severe or another mindless dungeon if they're too easy. As I said it's surely risky, but not impossible.

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The start could be like a short version of the combat part, and no 50 hour preparation part. But then it'd more go into different segments where you need a few specific classes per path to know their job, and the others can just mindlessly zerg, which seems to be the main idea behind Mid-core. So for example, in 1 path you need an experienced bard and dragoon, and the rest of the party can just be any class.

The reason people won't farm 1 path, is because different paths drop gear for different classes :)
Maybe there is a certain level progression in gear, but thats not always a bad thing, because if you don't offer gear, but something like mats/mounts/pets, people will stop doing it the moment they get their item. Plus not everyone can even use the rewards, if you were to offer special crafting mats, cause not everyone does crafting or gathering.

The reason people won't farm 1 path, is because different paths drop gear for different classes :)
Maybe there is a certain level progression in gear, but thats not always a bad thing, because if you don't offer gear, but something like mats/mounts/pets, people will stop doing it the moment they get their item. Plus not everyone can even use the rewards, if you were to offer special crafting mats, cause not everyone does crafting or gathering.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

A3S destroyed statics left and right, it caused people to switch servers to find replacements for their statics or to find brand new statics, even months after Savage was released. Also read what you said "80-90% clear rate cause they are pro" that means midcore players would have at least 79% clear rate, if a midcore group had 79% per your example A3S wouldn't be as hellacious as is.

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First, who said that A3S is easy? It's an hardcore content, and for months after I mean after it's patch cycle is finished. In fact in 3.2 A3S got nerfed, now it's easier. Second, I think you have some kind of problem with statistics. 80%-90% of clearing A3S it's not on first try but after the clear, and yes maybe Elysium had 100% clear of A3S when they did it weekly for progress on A4S. Who of the midcore statics that clear A3S later (4-5 months after release) they surely had a 79% of clearing it. So my 10% it's not on the community that clear the content after six months, but it's on the single runs. Obviously 10% with all pugs with moderate experience of the whole content, but for organized party-statics the % on single run it's higher, surely not 10%.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You claim Titan EX was midcore? Titan EX was one of the hardest fights next to Ifrit EX, because of the mechanics, those mechanics can still wipe players who miss one step even if they cleared it X number of times. Not a single EX was able to done in DF on release, it relied on PF and they still have a higher clear rate, Thordan was cleared day one on EX on Jenova by multiple parties, impart on the fact the fight is entirely all of 2.5-3.0 and even Sephirot was cleared in the first few days by many groups, and it's considered harder then THEX.

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For sure, Titan EX was a midcore content and yes was a challenging content (midcore). Which mechanics? Maybe the "gaols" were the only mechanics of the fight, all others were : aoes, tank crushers, tank' switchs and dps' checks. These are all basic mechanics and you could clear it (like I did on release) with pugs, obviously organized party starting in pf with phase 1 till phase 5 and the kill parties. You may have a different idea of midcore but for me it's not midcore=easy content. Hardcore contents are like savages cause there're mechanics that needs a lot of coordination between the party members and dps checks more severe. Midcore contents are like a Titan EX, basic mechanics at their limit and moderate dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Your content isn't designed for midcore groups at all, the moment people start wiping on your content and get kicked out of the instance is the moment it dies. Your content doesn't allow learning so even high end groups that wipe won't even do it because they can't jump right back into the fight. That time spent trying to understand that one fight and having to redo all the other fights before hand, would be better off being applied to the current raid or gearing up side jobs in many players eyes. It is a train wreck.

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Again, give a better read to the first post. You take the same rewards from the trash mobs till the last boss. The trash mobs have the RNG, the final boss has two sure drops. With a lucky run you can have 10 items dropped with 8 from trash mobs and mid-bosses and 2 only from last boss. And again, the mid-bosses are a harder version from the dungeon' ones, so the only that take many tries to clear it it's the last boss, and for a content that must last for the entire game's life not for only a patch cycle, it's quite fair. So yes, this content it's coherent with my idea of midcore.

Most extreme primals could count as a type of midcore content, but Titan Ex might have been the exception, simply because the penalties of anyone screwing up were so crushing.

Midcore content should be difficult, but not prohibitively so. Whatever shape it takes, it shouldn't be so hard that people clear it once, go on "farm" status and never want to go through the hell of helping others. Midcore content should be like sky/dynamis/limbus from XI... it should be somewhat inviting and offer ways for new people to jump right in without dooming runs to failure. Otherwise, newer players will continue to be excluded, and nothing will be achieved.

It looks like another version of Diadem (Hard) but no flying and no gathering. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Thayos

Most extreme primals could count as a type of midcore content, but Titan Ex might have been the exception, simply because the penalties of anyone screwing up were so crushing.

Midcore content should be difficult, but not prohibitively so. Whatever shape it takes, it shouldn't be so hard that people clear it once, go on "farm" status and never want to go through the hell of helping others. Midcore content should be like sky/dynamis/limbus from XI... it should be somewhat inviting and offer ways for new people to jump right in without dooming runs to failure. Otherwise, newer players will continue to be excluded, and nothing will be achieved.

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Your point is correct, but the two contents are quite different. The only comparison that you should make is on the difficulty.
People in the EX Trials as you said "clear it once, go on farm status and never want to go through the hell of helping others" because :

- is a single fight that you repeat over and over again; while my content is an entire map with a lot more of things to do, more variety.
- the rewards can be obtained only if you clear it; while in my content you receive rewards all over the content not only on clear.
- there ilev progress so people MUST clear it and also fast; while in my content there is not ilev, only glamour and glory.
- veteran players after an obliged farm for ilev' progress do not have any will to help others; while in my content veteran or new players can play togheter or in specific parties thanks to the "achievement system".

Also if the last boss will be punishing like Titan EX there's no problem cause : you have the SAME rewards all over the content, you'll not be in rush for ilev, you have a lot of variety and people can play or help others thanks to the "Achievement System".