AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

I think all three classes are wonderful, as opposed to terrible, additions to the game. What you are actually interested in is the underlying role system. The jobs are more flavor than actual mechanics. It would be totally possible to make aggro management a combined effort between two different roles: A controller and a tank. Instead, tanks have all the abilities related to holding aggro. In return, every tank must come with a full set of aggro management abilities mirroring every other tank. The less roles the game has, the more homogenized the jobs will be. We had some similar criticisms during the beta and launch from some insightful players. I think they should experiment with adding a new role to the game as opposed to adding more classes in the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I think all three classes are wonderful, as opposed to terrible, additions to the game. What you are actually interested in is the underlying role system. The jobs are more flavor than actual mechanics. It would be totally possible to make aggro management a combined effort between two different roles: A controller and a tank. Instead, tanks have all the abilities related to holding aggro. In return, every tank must come with a full set of aggro management abilities mirroring every other tank. The less roles the game has, the more homogenized the jobs will be. We had some similar criticisms during the beta and launch from some insightful players. I think they should experiment with adding a new role to the game as opposed to adding more classes in the trinity.

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+1...I like that idea. That being said, we need more than 8 people in a raid. 10-12 would be nice.

Instead of a new role, I wish we could change jobs in dungeons and other content as long as we're out of combat. This way it's perfectly fine for different jobs to have different niches. It would, however, mean that there will be pairs or sets of jobs that one should level up, for example PLD for MTing and WAR for OTing.

Job homogenization really is a product of free market forces. Players want every single job to be able to fulfill all situations in which the role is required. So every tank must have AOE tanking abilities and have defensive abilities capable of tanking every single boss in the game. We players are to blame for this.

Before complaining of job/class homogenization, we should ask ourselves this: are we fine with our chosen class/job unable to do certain content even though we have the right role? Are we fine playing a WAR knowing that it's 100 times harder to tank a specific boss as WAR than it is to do as PLD/DRK? Are we fine playing a BLM knowing that there are and there will be bosses where we literally have to keep moving 90% of the time?

If the answer is no, then we are the ones to blame for job/class homogenization.

As others have pointed out, it is *much* easier to release an undertuned class and then slowly fix it rather than release something blatantly OP that people flock to and then feel upset when it gets nerfed after they have invested time in it.

Heaven forbid they had made DRK an OP class there would be so many DRK running around that you wouldn't even be able to see Idyllshire through the shimmery red Darkside auras, and then the Biblical-level flood of tears when DRK eventually got nerfed would annihilate the forums. This isn't hypothetical either; this exact scenario played out for WoW in WoTLK with Death Knights.

People like seeing classes buffed, people don't like seeing classes get nerfed. In the long run it is always easier to release an undertuned class than an overtuned one.

Seeing as I've switched to a DRK main, I think DRK is fine. I'm not even full VIT spec and I've got more HP than most other tanks in my FC and as long you can manage your cooldowns, DRKs do just fine as MTs.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

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It's not the community to blame, it's Modern MMO's to blame. Back in the EQ, FFXI days, you could bring whatever. Yeah sure bring him and his wife, they are really nice. Oh we already have 7 ninjas in the raid. Whatever, 8 won't hurt. Nowadays, you don't just need a certain amount of people to put legitimate attempts on a boss. You need execution, and raw numbers. I might do a shitload of damage on A1, but what happens when I walk into A2? I'm gimping myself by not being a summoner, I immediately want to level summoner. Otherwise i feel carried. I can DO MORE DAMAGE if I play summoner. (This is just an example). This leads to the classes being homogenized. SMN can AOE, why can't I? Why can't SMN keep up with me on single target fights? Etc.

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

DRK has interesting ideas but still lacks PLD or WAR raid utility, is still inferior to other 2 tanks in their own domains (MT or OT and even survivability) and is, arguably, bad designed (darkside, parry based tank)

What do you guys think about it? What do you think about the new jobs anf them being patched/fixed every 2 weeks. Is it normal a new job from an expansion to be weaker? Isn't usually the other way around?
I want to hear your feedback, and your opinion, your deception if that's the case.

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I think you're ignorant and clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Destomius

I think you're ignorant and clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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And this is why we can't have nice things.

Just don't go around and start asking why people constantly complain about the community heh!

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Just don't go around and start asking why people constantly complain about the community heh!

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OP asked "What do you guys think...?" and "I want to hear your opinion" and I simply gave an honest answer. Calling DRK a failure is completely ridiculous considering many of the world's top groups to progress through savage Alexander content used DRK main tanks. How is it not ignorant to call DRK a failure as a new job?

As far as MCH and AST are concerned, yes they were released a bit underpowered but it honestly didn't take long for SE to release balance adjustments to bring them up to par. I'd honestly rather new jobs be released undertuned than overtuned, because overtuned jobs get nerfed and it feels much worse to invest time/esoterics into a job only to see it nerfed.

The community would be far worse if all we did was coddle each other and give "nice" answers instead of truthful ones. OP clearly said "I want to hear your opinion" meaning we have every right to share a negative opinion on his ideas.

Maybe they should add a support role to groups

At any rate better underpowered than overpowered I say.
WoW death knight anyone?