This Just In: Ifrit HM Now Requires i110

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 10K HP warrior. I can't hold hate against an 8K HP paladin and I don't even want to try.

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Lets start here:

Yes you can.

The enmity generation (all enmity listed as enmity potency) of a proper warrior opening (infuriate -> unchained -> Heavy -> Berserk -> Skull -> BB -> Heavy -> Maim -> Path -> Heavy -> Skull -> BB) is 14,953 (we're timing out berserk real tight here to get that last BB out just before pacification hits, and might lose around 1000 enmity if we're sloppy at all, but even at 13k ePot this still all checks out) over that 20 seconds. A paladin in sword oath will put out, in that time doing FoF/CoS timed to get two in and dropping Spirits Within on CD (only once in the first 20s, granted) hits 7,106. That's less than half and assuming the paladin is not holding back at all.

After that initial 'wee all my CDs' spike, as a warrior using path every two BBs (enough to keep it up), and only using eye situationally (as you should), you'll be generating 3,290 enmity per combo, on average. A paladin, who is still not holding back, is going to be producing 1,887 in sword oath. IF you decide to keep up eye all the time for some reason, you'll still be keeping up 2073 enmity (give or take a couple tenths), which is still about 200 more per combo than the paladin and more than enough to keep your loldoubleyourenmity lead.

Note: I'm not calculating in the slash resist debuff, only berserk, unchained, FoF, and maim, because pld and warrior will benefit roughly equally from the debuff (warrior will actually get a bit more out of it because CoS and SW aren't slashing but whatever).

So, yes. Yes you can keep aggro. Easily.

Now, moving on:

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Originally Posted by Catwho

WAR can turn off Defiance and put out some pretty rad damage, unlike a PLD.

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A war who is off tanking's maximum damage is to just spam BB, popping berserk when they can and keeping fracture up. This isn't what you'd actually do because, as you said, the path/eye combos are great and you'd probably be keeping them both up to keep enmity down, but lets just look at what a warrior can do in berserk. You've got enough time for about 2 combos + another attack. So that's 150, 200, and 280 potency x 1.50 x 2 and then a fracture snap casted at the end. Or, 1890 potency in those 15s plus another 450 over the next thirty. Probably tosses in a brutal swing during berserk for an extra 75 potency. So altogether, we'll just say 2415 (possibly 2715 if we time berserk just right and manage to drop a skull sunder before our snap fracture) potency in 20 seconds (15 of berserk, 5 of pacification)

Meanwhile a paladin is doing FoF for 20 seconds, and dropping two CoS in that time, along with 3 rage combos, and a spirit's within. So that's 100 + (30 x 5) x 1.3 (fof) x 2 for the circles which is 650 potency from the two circles, plus another 300 for spirits (I don't believe this gets the FoF bonus as I believe it's magical), so that's 950. Now we add the three rage combos, which are 150, 200, 260, added up that's 610, multiply by 3 because we can do this 3 times, and it's 1830, multiply by 1.3 for Fof and 2379, add the circles and spirits and that's 3329 potency in 20 seconds (180 potency, admittedly, will land via the second snap casted CoS in the five seconds after that, but 3149 is still more deeps than an unstanced war).

Now let's also add that you're going to get about 8 auto attacks in in that time as either, BUT the paladin in sword oath gets +50 damage on each.

So the paladin is hitting, with buffs up 3329 potency, plus another 400 damage (straight damage, nothing really impacts that other than weapon speed) in the 20 seconds they have their primary damage buff up, while the warrior is hitting 2415 with no added damage.

Add in that the Warrior is taking hits to potency to put up path, if not both path and eye, and well it's pretty laughable that you say the warrior can drop defiance to do nice damage and the paladin can't.

You win. I don't feel like arguing on the internet when Garuda HM is in bonus.

Sounds like a bunch of light farmers getting pissy that they actually had to play right instead of hamfisting the keyboard while watching Netflix.

Though I chuckled at the other tank with less gear jumping on you too, poor guy was probably just trying to deflect so he wasn't roasted too.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm a 112 WAR working on relic. I glance at the class and HP of the other tank and make a snap decision on whether I should take off defiance or not.

In fact, I made a handy dandy flow chart for it:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/9be1eebb...a11wo1_540.png

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Small issue, though: Sometimes having more HP doesn't mean you're the better choice at tanking. Some tanks with ridiculously high HP have effectively sacrificed threat generation to get to that stage.
But this is only really relevant in coils anyway, so I digress.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Small issue, though: Sometimes having more HP doesn't mean you're the better choice at tanking. Some tanks with ridiculously high HP have effectively sacrificed threat generation to get to that stage.
But this is only really relevant in coils anyway, so I digress.

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Yeah, probably. The chart is more for snap judgement for things like Garuda or T4, where people don't even want to take the 10 seconds to discuss it. T4 I just straight up say "I'll OT" since I'm good at crowd control, but lack the gear to hold hate against a 6K HP dragoon. :P Ideally if you're rolling into Coil, you're going to know who is doing what ahead of time, or be willing to take the 30 seconds to have the conversation prior to the fight starting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Small issue, though: Sometimes having more HP doesn't mean you're the better choice at tanking. Some tanks with ridiculously high HP have effectively sacrificed threat generation to get to that stage.
But this is only really relevant in coils anyway, so I digress.

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I healed Praetorium once with a (new) tank who had over over 5000 HP. Problem was, his left-side was still entirely i50 AF, so even though he thought he had the "HP" to withstand certain formerly sure-kill mechanics without CDs, he actually couldn't take the hits. I really wish HP wasn't used as the metric for a tank's tankiness, because at the end of the day it's the Defense and MDef you're after.

Definitely have to chuckle at this thread. As someone who has high level tanks and goon and plays goon as my main dps class I just wanted to say its not really your fault though definitely provoke would have helped. As a tank easiest solution would have been get 2nd on the agro table, let the goon die and take over from there. As the goon if you are in Ifrit HM by now you should know your roll. My goon has over 7K HP still doesn't mean I can tank a primal. Adds on the other hand that's different. I have to also agree with one of the other posters that it was most likely a light farm where people were annoyed because shocker they might actually have to follow mechanics.