1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

This game as a whole is still a work in progress, and the changes brought with 1.18 are in no way complete changes. They are the essential groundwork for 1.19 and 1.20 to say the least.

I will concur that cross-classing leads to a very large advantage at this point in the game, arguably more than it should, but again if you gather all the information we were given about how jobs will work it becomes more or less clear that becoming effective at party roles without needing to cross-class is something they will effectively introduce.

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Agreed. And I'm hopeful.

I guess to wrap it up, the concerns I had with the enmity system (currently) is the source of hate most tanks were relying on. But as I said then, I agree with your overall sentiments. I'm optimistic of the coming changes and can more than live with the current system, for now. As long as people are aware it's a work-in-progress and not a finished system.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

As long as people are aware it's a work-in-progress and not a finished system.

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Quoted for truth. This point is absolutely key.

Good points OP, sadly when this game started it held players hand, now its time to let it go, but players are too weak to survive and adapt on their own. Similar things gonna happen to Anima, already happen to gil, now enmity, and MP management.

When a challenge is thrown at you, try to over come the obstacle and do the best you can. Not get on forum and asking DEV for a hand to hold.

Patch 1.18 Filter of the weak.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Of course the cross-class abilities are the way of FFXIV - nobody is disputing that. A lot of people are discouraged by it though and I think that's fair for people to hold that opinion. Nobody can say whether that's the way it always has been and always will be. It's the part in italics players are concerned about.

@ mysterytaru: I played and loved the system in FFXI. Cross-classing is not the issue. It's the obscene amount of cross-classing players are concerned with. I think everyone could live with a subjob or two. But leveling all classes to cap seems absurd (which is currently the stress).

To each their own, but I think the blanket statements say "it's a part of the game, deal with it" are uncalled for and potentially untrue. So much in this game is changing, nobody can be sure until information about this is released (I think patch 1.20?). Imagine people had the same mindset towards anima teleportation, the armoury system, the leve system, etc. They were part of the game, but we didn't have to deal with it. This is left to be seen regarding cross-classing.

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if someone levels a lot of jobs to 50 he/she SHOULD be better then someone who did not. the more time and work you put in should be rewarded. you have the option of doing it as well but you also have the option of not doing it.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

When a challenge is thrown at you, try to over come the obstacle and do the best you can. Not get on forum and asking DEV for a hand to hold.

Patch 1.18 Filter of the weak.

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Agreed, however I wouldn't go as far as call it a filter of the weak. That's a tad... aggressive lol.

To me it essentially gives players more room to improve and display their skill, and have it pay off in the end with their friends and shell-mates appreciating their hard work. It gives players room for progress. A challenge to rise to.

FFXIV was lacking that more than anything.

What I believe is happening mostly is that due to the "easy-mode" status the game had before, almost anyone was amazing at whatever they would strive to accomplish. Now with the introduction of a necessary level of difficulty, a lot of players who believe they were amazing tanks/mages/DPS find that what supposedly made them amazing does not work anymore. It takes effort to reach a level of effectiveness they previously had almost subconsciously.

I prided myself in being a very good tank. Some would say I had delusions of grandeur, stating I was my shell's main tank. With 1.18 I realized how I used to not have to do much at all to hold hate and tank, and that the skills I had did all the work for me.

I have since embraced that change, and am now both researching and working on improving my tanking to be the best it can be.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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The thing I don't understand is this: how is it fun or strategic if the tank doesn't have to actually work hard to gain/keep hate above all others? Say, if provoke remained the way it used to be where you get instant hate no matter what. Then it just becomes a mater of how fast your cooldown is on abilities similar to that.

The way it is now [and has been in xi that I liked, but is irrelevant], not only does the tank have to work at keeping the mob's attention, but the rest of the party has to also manage their damage or healing output as to not disrupt the flow of battle. It's a very nice system that keeps everyone working together. If your ARC wants to go guns blazing and ignore whats going on with the rest of the group, he'll die, and maybe take some others with him if what you're fighting happens to have some devastating AoEs. It really shows who knows how to play from who doesn't when you don't rely solely on your tank with the insta-win button.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Agreed, however I wouldn't go as far as call it a filter of the weak. That's a tad... aggressive lol.

To me it essentially gives players more room to improve and display their skill, and have it pay off in the end with their friends and shell-mates appreciating their hard work. It gives players room for progress. A challenge to rise to.

FFXIV was lacking that more than anything.

What I believe is happening mostly is that due to the "easy-mode" status the game had before, almost anyone was amazing at whatever they would strive to accomplish. Now with the introduction of a necessary level of difficulty, a lot of players who believe they were amazing tanks/mages/DPS find that what supposedly made them amazing does not work anymore. It takes effort to reach a level of effectiveness they previously had almost subconsciously.

I prided myself in being a very good tank. Some would say I had delusions of grandeur, stating I was my shell's main tank. With 1.18 I realized how I used to not have to do much at all to hold hate and tank, and that the skills I had did all the work for me.

I have since embraced that change, and am now both researching and working on improving my tanking to be the best it can be.

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i guess calling it "weak" is kinda aggressive but it was aimed at those whiners on the forums. Some people in my shell are asking tips and strats from more experienced players in my shell who adapted the system, watching this actually makes me happy, because they are trying to improve instead of complaining.

If players cant even adapt to small basic battle changes like this, idk what they gonna do in/to this game.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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That's a pretty bold statement to make unless you know how every other player plays every other "modern MMORPG". I'm gonna not go out on a limb by guessing that you don't.

As it stands, yes it is employed in other MMORPGs, as I've seen it implemented in a few of them in my time playing (Lineage 2, EQ2 and FFXI to be exact). Wouldn't be at all surprised to see it used in others as well.

Regardless, the bigger point is the tactic of waiting a given amount of time for the tank to build aggro is a player-chosen tactic. It's not imposed by the game. People can (and do) develop and prefer other tactics in a given situation. Allowing the tank a "head-start" on building hate is simply one of them.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

This. Thank you.

I was honestly starting to freak out a little bit with everyone taking the number so literally.

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Not surprising to me in the least...

It's all too common in debate/discussion for people to avoid engaging in the larger point being made, by putting their focus, instead, on an individual detail. In this way, they try to change the debate to be about the individual detail, which may be an "easier target" for them, rather than addressing the bigger picture, which they can't so easily (if at all) counter.

It's a kind of red herring attempt, which you basically thwarted by clarifying your use of that number, and not taking the bait :).

I don't think the system is perfect, but what in life is? Games like this are always changing. No one in here knows what the perfect game should be and neither does SE. What I can be confident saying is, I am having a LOT more fun in this game than before. Even something small like settlements has added to my enjoyment, let alone the awesome challenging dungeons. Auto attack has been awesome as well. As for hate, it just is another element into the strategy of battle, than really wasn't there before because nothing we fought ever lasted very long. Cheers to the OP and Cheers to 1.19 and beyond.