Stop lying to your groups

Unfortunately people leaving DF because someone has spoken up about being new to an instance is something that can happen but is ultimately beyond their control (No lying doesn’t really stop this as they’ll just do it to the next person).

There’s nothing wrong with nor should anyone be ashamed of being new to content

Keep in mind I’m also not suggesting that people have to enter every instance with a giant flag over their heads saying “I’ve never been here” I get that some people don’t want to be put on the spot like that, and its fine, once again I feel the Duty Finder is a learning environment.

The Issue arises when a specific question is posed to the party and either nobody responds or they flat out lie about it.

“Has everyone done this fight before?”

If a person lies in response to or says nothing to this at all then they are causing a bigger problem than the one caused by those who ditch the DF, this is further amplified if they are playing a VITAL role in the party composition (See: TANK / HEALER)

If you are a healer or a tank and enter Titan and have no idea what you’re supposed to do, say nothing, and proceed to die the entire fight, you are now a liability to the 7 other people who want to do the content as bad as you do.


Your refusal to be open and honest about the situation is essentially robbing the rest of the group of a fighting chance.


There’s a reason that the DF gives us 90 minutes on most encounters that average groups of appropriately geared players can clear in half the time or less (in some cases even a fraction of the time) It’s there so that if things need to be explained or attempted multiple times you have the leeway to do so, you are essentially provided with TIME TO LEARN.


And as for experience?


What experience are you getting if you enter say... Titan, die early in the fight, and get carried to a win, especially if no mechanics were explained to you.

None.

After the initial glow of completing your Relic fades off (it will eventually) and you decide to go do Titan again whether it be for yourself or to help someone else you will now have no idea how to perform and will be no better off than your first attempt.

This is why it’s an issue.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Ridiculous. You do realize that there are several different valid general strategies for every turn before you even consider the composition of the party - right? I don't want my FC copying my groups strategy because we don't run a BLM/SMN. If another raid group does - you should adjust accordingly. We explain mechanics and how we handled them. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Also - you clearly didn't read my entire post.

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Your post was, in short: "Don't explain things to newbies. Let them take some hits so they will learn that way". This the most absurd thing I've ever read.
Are you going to say the same to your kids? "I didn't tell them running on the road was dangerous. I knew it was, but I think it's better if they learn by themselves" (yes, I know, comparing a real life situation to a game, what a silly thing to do).

I'm not talking about spoonfeeding here (which is a wonderful term to use after my "children" comparison. If you don't "spoonfeed" your children, they will starve and die.), I'm talking about "first necessity" advices.
"The dragon will breath twice instead of a single time when he's at 50% HP, be careful.", "Hey, Tank, it's your first time, so be aware that you will have to move from here, to there at a point of the battle, otherwise we're all dead". That kind of stuff.

Telling this to players who never did the fight doesn't serve them a "huge disservice", as you said. In fact, it can prevent your entire group from getting wiped, just because they will know to be on their guard for that specific moment. Maybe they will respond "Oh, yeah, I already saw that in a video, it should be ok, I'll do my best avoiding it". But, better safe than sorry.

So, as I said, if you are not willing to help new player to have a better understanding about the game (again, I'm not talking about "spoonfeeding" garbage), you are a bad player yourself.

"Let the party wipe a few time to see if they learn", is a terrible way of doing things.

I figure around the 10th or 15th time someone gets:

leader: You know fight?
rando: First time!
leader: No.

Is about when they start lying - and I don't blame them one bit.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Your post was, in short: "Don't explain things to newbies. Let them take some hits so they will learn that way". This the most absurd thing I've ever read.

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You literally can't read. Here's my post.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Wrong. How exactly do you think all of us figured it out? How do you think we became good?

It has something to do about testing content for yourself and developing your own strategies. If you spoon feed a noob you will make that noob a bad player and do him/her a huge disservice. If a noob simply tries to copy what you do verbatim, boot em - they are a lost cause. Provide video tutorials at MOST, do not carry. Ever.

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Catch the part about providing video tutorials? You have to accept what works for A won't necessarily work for B, but what A does can influence how B handles things.

I will always advocate that people develop their own play strategies. Unless a coil party has the exact same setup as mine, I will always advise to not do exactly what we do. Rather - I want them to understand why we do what we do. That way, they can develop their own strategy.

This will always be more effective than what you advocate.

Also, yes - I do want Coil groups to wipe initially. I want them to understand why their strategy failed and to think about how they should proceed. You have to let newcomers think for themselves. If they aren't willing to do that, I don't want them with our guild tag.

*Dungeon starts*
Person 1: hello, it's my first time here!
*2 people drop*
*Party's over*

Why in the world would anyone ever say that they are new?
I used to say that I am new up until maybe Castrum.
After that I always try to run a new dungeon with either friends or I'll watch video/read a guide first.
Though my first run with Garuda hard mode was awful because I got 90k'ed twice during the fight x_x

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Originally Posted by Nukocafe

*Dungeon starts*
Person 1: hello, it's my first time here!
*2 people drop*
*Party's over*

Why in the world would anyone ever say that they are new?
I used to say that I am new up until maybe Castrum.
After that I always try to run a new dungeon with either friends or I'll watch video/read a guide first.
Though my first run with Garuda hard mode was awful because I got 90k'ed twice during the fight x_x

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That's why you try to go in with a group of newcomers. Experience the battle fresh, learn from it. Make a LS of people who you go with. Learn together.

Always admit it if its your first time. If the group breaks or they say no before you even get in, then thank the twelve and find a group with decent helpful players in it.

I always did my first times with my FC to learn them where possible... Now I know the dungeons and primals, I FC, PUG and DF them.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

You literally can't read. Here's my post.



Catch the part about providing video tutorials? Try again, before I decide to report you for slander. You have to accept what works for A won't necessarily work for B, but what A does can influence how B handles things.

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Lol at reporting someone for slander! Are you going to sue for monetary damages too?

Unfortunately, lying doesn't only happen between DF groups. It happened to me in my fc a few weeks ago. Someone in my FC was asking for help with Garuda HM so I and a bunch of other FC mates volunteered to help. We get into Garuda and the person we're helping kept dying a lot. Midway through the dungeon, an LS mate of mine who had fallen into the same trap told me to examine the person's gears and I realized that she was wearing all low level white gear only. We finished it because Garuda is easy if majority of the party knows what to do.

Fast forward a few days later and this same person is asking the FC again for help but this time with titan HM. Recalling my experiences from before, I decide to speak up on FC chat about the person being severely undergeared and she's all "yea I want to be carried". i have no problems with people wanting to be carried but only if they inform their teams beforehand and are open and honest about it. This person just wanted to sneak into groups without letting them know she wasn't going to be contributing. That seriously annoyed me. And of course she got berated by FC mates and no one helped her that day.

Moral of the story? Please be open and honest about your capabilities and your intentions. When you lie, it burns bridges. I'm okay with helping people who are willing to speak up about their deficiencies and learn from me about how they can improve. If you're not going to give me the minimum courtesy of telling me that you're new and need help, then don't blame me if I rage quit mid way through the dungeon either.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Except for the whole piece where we developed our strategy together, as a group - copying no one.

Ridiculous. You do realize that there are several different valid general strategies for every turn before you even consider the composition of the party - right? I don't want my FC copying my groups strategy because we don't run a BLM/SMN. If another raid group does - you should adjust accordingly. We explain mechanics and how we handled them. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Also - you clearly didn't read my entire post.

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You are confusing. You say "don't copy" but encourage people to look up strategies. I guess you must be new to the MMO genre. Players will always have the "cookie cutter" build/way to do something and if its not done that way, "its wrong!". Take leveling in FFXIV for instance. If you arent doing FATE you are doing it wrong and slow, even though people hate FATES its the "fastest" way to level ergo everyone must do it. It gets to the point where anyone trying to Level up outside of that has to struggle to do so.

What does make sense is you asking that people at least try to get an idea of how things work before entering. But its like any profession in real life. They will not hire you without actual work experience. How do you get work experience if you cannot get a job working in the field without having experience? i agree with another poster in here. Have you seen a single shout saying "LFM Coil turn 1 {no experience necessary}"

As for copying, to me its like when i'm cooking. first time, i follow the recipe to the letter. After i tried it and see how it works, i begin to tweak it to suit my tastes. Same goes for this and other MMO's better to copy someone to see how things work, giving you a base to go by, then tweak it to suit your playstyle. Condemning people for doing things differently than you will not help anyone. It will frustrate you and frustrate them. I wish people were more accepting and understanding instead of impatient and resentful.