Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cygnia

Thank you to those that responded; apologies for the irksome question, however I'm not particularly good at pinpointing and articulating whatever might be niggling my brain when it comes to analyzing faces, especially stylized ones. Helps to have keener eyes and minds on the case.

---

No worries! Definitely not imagining it, all of the faces have changed, some more obviously than others, and tiny changes do add up.

I still really like the Lalafell I made with the latest freebie after really examining my Midlander character verses old images of that face and starting to hate it. She's as similar to my first avatar (and playing on PS3 potato graphics mode) from ARR I could recall, so time probably helps me not be weirded out.

I realized my old Elezen fave is gone, too. The eyes no longer have that almond shape with notable upper eyelashes, and the mouth is less thick and smiley.

It's so strange. It's truly across the board and it's *so subtle* that we really only see it because we're so attached. It's like uncanny valley kicks in or something. I wonder if the devs can even get it right no matter the effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RedLolly

I wonder if the devs can even get it right no matter the effort.

---

They got it right for my WoL, but honestly, they probably can't for everyone.

Unless they expand their CAC system to give more options that includes the old version, or an updated but faithfully recreated like some we've seen been made in mobile version alongside DT iterations? Nay, impossible.

At this point it's just egregious enough they might as well come out and say it's a design change than trying to appease 1 side while pissing off others' that may have been happy with their brand new cake(s). Round and round they go, with Fantasia/patch to try to dampen the outrage perhaps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Unless they expand their CAC system to give more options that includes the old version, or an updated but faithfully recreated like some we've seen been made in mobile version alongside DT iterations? Nay, impossible.

At this point it's just egregious enough they might as well come out and say it's a design change than trying to appease 1 side while pissing off others' that may have been happy with their brand new cake(s). Round and round they go, with Fantasia/patch to try to dampen the outrage perhaps.

---

We've had so many issues with DT, too, that I feel like "Graphical update messed with created character appearances" mostly got buried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RedLolly

I wonder if the devs can even get it right no matter the effort.

---

Oh, they definitely can, but they won't, because costs will be too high.

P.S. I've just checked smiles across male faces, and all the issues I pointed out in this series of posts still persist. Many male smiles are uncanny, and if the smiling facial expression is combined with lip movement, it's just creepiness incarnate.

The list of "graphical upgrade" losers (all faces belong to male characters):

Midlanders: faces 4, 5, 6.
Highlanders: faces 1, 3.
Elezens: faces 1, 2 (to the lesser degree, but still U-shaped).
Roegadyns: faces 1, 4.
Au Ra: faces 1, 2, 4. The 3rd face has the best smile + lip movement combination, but still there is room for improvement. The 2nd and the 4th faces are the worst.
Viera: face 2.

Semi-annual reminder to SE that some of us are really happy:

https://i.imgur.com/kAjmJjc.png

For the love of the Twelve leave this face alone in all future updates! Pretty sure you guys didn't do anything to it this time, he's still got the weird thing on his upper lip that existed in Endwalker but went away in 7.0 and then came back in 7.2 that I didn't say anything about because stop fiddling. His lips look different from Endwalker: I DON'T CARE, it looks better now, he used to look like he was constantly pursing his lips. His nose looks different: GOOD IT NEEDED TO, current is a vast improvement, he used to look like he'd had bad plastic surgery on his nose. Eye color looks different: BY RHALGR I CAN SEE IT NOW THIS IS GOOD, my WoL doesn't look cross-eyed any more because of the old catchlights. My WoL looks amazing, no touch.

Got used to the 7.1 change that took the smolder down a notch. Still kind of sad about it though, it was nice.

However, please do fiddle with the poor femroes who have weird looking foreheads. See faiarrow's posts for details, those girls need some love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astronis

Semi-annual reminder to SE that some of us are really happy:

https://i.imgur.com/kAjmJjc.png

---

Wow, yeah, he looks perfectly fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argantaelle

Oh, they definitely can, but they won't, because costs will be too high.

P.S. I've just checked smiles across male faces, and all the issues I pointed out in this series of posts still persist. Many male smiles are uncanny, and if the smiling facial expression is combined with lip movement, it's just creepiness incarnate.

The list of "graphical upgrade" losers:

Midlanders: faces 4, 5, 6.
Highlanders: faces 1, 3.
Elezens: faces 1, 2 (to the lesser degree, but still U-shaped).
Roegadyns: faces 1, 4.
Au Ra: faces 1, 2, 4. The 3rd face has the best smile + lip movement combination, but still there is room for improvement. The 2nd and the 4th faces are the worst.
Viera: face 2.

---

Face four vieras have HORRIBLE lips which have since been getting a little bit better bit by bit. BUT compare them to face one vieras and you will see and insane difference in the quality of lips and movement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RedLolly

We've had so many issues with DT, too, that I feel like "Graphical update messed with created character appearances" mostly got buried.

---

That's what I'm saying: some may like said 'issues' and get upset when they're altered later on. When it comes to matters of taste, I don't think they can appease both side unless they give everybody the option(s) to pick what they've always liked.

I just want the creator to be improved. It is long past due for the character creator to be better, and honestly...that should be on the next thing on the list after "class revamps" imo.

I wouldn't mind a character creator revamp, new options, more options. But more than anything I want the long hair clipping on everything fixed, there are so many things I can't wear because of it.

Male Au Ra face 2 eyebrows feedback (7.3)

Changes for the better are definitely made, even though some of the EW eyebrows haven't been recreated faithfully (for example, eyebrows 6 lost their small curve between the eyes). Eyebrows 1, 4, and 5 are good.

The eyebrow placement is the other matter entirely. Some of the eyebrows are placed so low that they lose their curve if you look the character straight in the eyes (type 2, type 3). It seems like the curved part is hidden by the brow ridge. Many EW eyebrows across many male faces are affected by being placed under the brow ridge, though.

Very small 7.3 spoilers. Look at the eyebrow placement of this guy:

https://i.postimg.cc/kXQVtHc1/eyebrows-cutscene-7-3.png

As usual, lots of pictures are hidden under the spoiler tag, so open at your own risk (Au Ra male face 2 EW - 7.0 - 7.3 eyebrows comparison).

1.
https://i.postimg.cc/137xz9Lp/eyebrows-1.png

2.
https://i.postimg.cc/mggfRc6L/eyebrows-2.png

3.
https://i.postimg.cc/fTKn67Cq/eyebrows-3.png

4.
https://i.postimg.cc/TPKzLz6B/eyebrows-4.png

5.
https://i.postimg.cc/43jrzW4y/eyebrows-5.png

6.
https://i.postimg.cc/3Rpz92WB/eyebrows-6.png

I also updated my super long 7.3 feedback compendium, and I think I'll stop till 7.4 (if there are going to be any changes at all).

Still hope SE finally addresses mouths, smiles and smiles combined with lip movement.

Minuscule 7.3 spoilers

I had to turn away yet again when my character smiled and tried to talk during the final cutscenes of 7.3.

I hope they just overhaul the CC completely as I am so tired of having to wear the 2b bottoms with everything trying to make my character look less like a stick. It is nothing pervy I just look at games like Exp 33 and Nier where the characters are shapely. The men in the game suffer also from the same no bottom issue.

I just want to look like a woman not a 15 year old kid. I remember in 1.0 my Miqo'te had really no chest none did to be fair and they did add the bust slider. I am not wanting stupid proportions just wish we could have a little more shape. I find every bottom piece looks so flat lol

I wasn't playing at the time so I don't know for sure, but didn't 1.0 have character models with higher polygon counts?

Yes everything looked way better back then now it is all too cartoon looking. Maybe now they can update the CC as they are not adding anymore races. They should have concentrated on the CC and then the new races as they are half done still. The game needs something doing. I am not sure on polygons and graphical stuff as I am hopeless at that but they also stole my voice and changed them >.< which tbh is something that really upset me lol. I think it was one of the reasons I changed to Hyur as they took my Miqot'es voice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tahli

I wasn't playing at the time so I don't know for sure, but didn't 1.0 have character models with higher polygon counts?

---

Everything had higher poly counts, but it was done ineptly. The famous example Yoshida used to explain why ARR's downgrade was necessary was a flowerpot that had more triangles than a player character.

ah, thank you! I'll keep that in mind moving forward. I don't actually frequent the forums so apologies for the delay in response ; w;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

Everything had higher poly counts, but it was done ineptly. The famous example Yoshida used to explain why ARR's downgrade was necessary was a flowerpot that had more triangles than a player character.

---

Hmm, got it. I wonder if they could at least use it as a reference to upgrade some of the body models?
Or why they didn't use it as a slightly more detailed reference for how the true "intended appearance" of base game races was supposed to look.

Went through my screenshots from patch day finally, and my Lala is looking gorgeous in cutscenes! Whatever they did is subtle, because you don’t notice much of a difference on side by side comparison, but it looks good! Maybe they played with the lighting this time around, especially in cutscenes.

Sadly, my Hyurs (Midlander face 1 and Highlander face 2) show almost no change at all. Middie still has eye bags and incorrect mouth shape. Highlander still has incorrect mouth shape, eye shape, nose shape and more Roe-looking brow and bridge of nose. Still disappointed, but at this point I’ve given up ever getting though characters back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raim

Can something be done about the lips on Male (Sea Wolf in particular) Roegadyn? They are strangely glossy after the Dawntrail changes. It looks like they all have lip gloss on and is especially noticeable on Face 1. It was not like this at all before Dawntrail and kind of ruins the way my old Roegadyn used to look.

---

YES PLEASE I HATE the gloss. Like I really hate it. I want matted lips. Lips dont SHINE IRL without any gloss added to them.

I never thought I'd see the day, but my WoL is officially back from the dead:
https://i.imgur.com/1s6El4c.jpeg

Whatever they changed was subtle, but she finally has a personality again and no longer looks permanently stoned. So thanks to the devs for doing right by my Elezen. Hoping other folks get their WoLs back, too.

I tried to remake my old Elezen and it's. So, so, SO close that I feel she's finally translated to HD. They absolutely did *something*. It made me a little emotional, haha.

I'm very glad for Elezen ladies :)

As for my face 4 mouth 2 Elezen, she is good enough, but I'd rather have her lower lip reduced and the permanent lip gloss removed (she had smaller lips in EW). But I can live with these changes, especially after SE corrected her mouth a little bit in 7.3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiara_Mela

I've not seen anyone mention it yet, but Keeper of the Moon female face 3 used to have an area of freckles / redness across the upper cheeks and nose that I thought was really cute, and that's gone entirely with Dawntrail. The new face 3 has extremely "flat" skin with no texture or colour variation that tends to make it look like I'm wearing heavy makeup, especially combined with what they did to the eyes that made the mascara look significantly more pronounced (unclear how much this is the eyelashes vs the change to eye shape?). This has been by far the most significant change for me, in terms of how my character feels, and I really hope it can be fixed. I miss my cute freckles!

https://i.postimg.cc/rp7GbZcS/comparison-small.webp
(face 3, jaw 3, eye 6, eyebrow 2, nose 3, mouth 3)

My face stripes are also pulled back a little and fade out on the end, which I dislike for reasons similar to disliking the attempt to reduce the cute fangs. I'm a cat, my cat features should be front and center, y'know? Like the freckles / skin texture variation, they add character.

All of the above contributes to a sense of my face being physically flatter -- I can't tell whether this is an actual geometry change or just there being a lot less shading and variation highlighting facial contours.

My face also feels rounder, but while there's been a small geometry change there, most of the effect there comes from the lighting no longer casting shadows on my jaw in the same way, making it look significantly rounder from the front. This seems like probably the same underlying issues as the face flatness thing.

I don't super love the eye shape changes or the lil mouth dimples, but plenty of others have gone into the issues there already.

Also you can't tell in the aetherial sea lighting above, but my hair colour used to have an orange tint to it under most lighting conditions, but is now chocolate brown. It doesn't seem possible to get closer than this to the colour I used to have, unfortunately.

On a positive note, the high resolution hair texture is really nice, it looks a lot better than the old one.

---

Looks like still no changes in 7.3 for me. I briefly got hopeful, since other people have been seeing some improvement, but I fear they might have decided this is just fine. I just wanna go back to having a (relatively) natural appearance, not one that's got heavy makeup baked in. Having makeup as an option makes sense, but it shouldn't be baked into your skin texture, and having it added to a face that wasn't heavy on it before sucks a lot.

There's a problem with my Midlander Hyur female's hair clipping in the temples that wasn't there before this latest patch.

After:
https://i.imgur.com/3B59e16.jpeg

Before:
https://i.imgur.com/XDOoiIw.jpeg

From the lodestone post about mod usage:

https://i.imgur.com/UunWKit.png

I hope it includes the request for EW faces. In the mean time, it looks like it won't land you in too much trouble if you seek alternative means of fixing the problem cilent-side.

In the wake of all this mod discussion, it's particularly infuriating that there are absolutely mods that reinstate EW faces, but SE still remains deaf to all the complaints about face changes. They could get a lot of goodwill back by adding back the options they took away as additional options; maybe they could do that for 8.0, but honestly that's a long ass time to wait for something we should've already gotten back by now. I wouldn't be surprised to see folks give up and just opt for imperfect mods locally in their own games (in Yoshi-P's own "don't show don't tell" manner) that at least come closer to recapturing their WoL's faces than whatever we have now. But to be honest, I don't really want people to have to resort to that, because then SE would feel like they're absolved from actually addressing these issues.

Yeah, I'm worried because of the mod discussion. I worry that SE will eventually decide that we can just discreetly use local mods or get used to the new faces. They're clearly not happy to keep working on this.

But for me, watching the latest Cosmic Exploration cutscenes once again reminded me how much I'm not over the changes to my main character. His face was more tolerable in the MSQ because of the more detailed facial animations, but the CE scenes relied more on the incredibly tired default expression.

Still struggling with my Midlander female and hate what they have done to face 1&2 I hope they just give us a better character creator with way more choice we have, including body shape and far more face options and makeup and hair styles. Not everyone wants to use mods even discreetly or is able like I am console so where does that leave players on consoles? I never have used mods and never needed to but I wish we had more choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luluna

Still struggling with my Midlander female and hate what they have done to face 1&2 I hope they just give us a better character creator with way more choice we have, including body shape and far more face options and makeup and hair styles. Not everyone wants to use mods even discreetly or is able like I am console so where does that leave players on consoles? I never have used mods and never needed to but I wish we had more choice.

---

My one alt was originally a face 1 Middie, and with the latest free Fantasia I ended up making a face 2 I actually liked. But even so, I can see where there are still problems, especially with the eyes and mouth. It’s just the best I could do with the new options. Face 2 seems to not have as much of a problem with the eye bags as face 1 at least. But I’m sure the lips were probably a lot fuller, poutier and detailed before the update, like most of them were!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

My one alt was originally a face 1 Middie, and with the latest free Fantasia I ended up making a face 2 I actually liked. But even so, I can see where there are still problems, especially with the eyes and mouth. It’s just the best I could do with the new options. Face 2 seems to not have as much of a problem with the eye bags as face 1 at least. But I’m sure the lips were probably a lot fuller, poutier and detailed before the update, like most of them were!

---

aww yes they where the mouth on face 2 was so lovely it was really pouty but in a nice way. I wish they would fix the eye bags its such a shame and yes all the mouths need some help the colour seems so flat and pursed :(

I'm not familar with it too well (sorry if these are prerelease examples) but the FF10 HD remaster/remake(?) replacing and changing character faces and graphics reminds me a lot of what happened in DT.

https://i.imgur.com/xWf9NzK.png

https://i.imgur.com/bA4E0Jm.png
(This one looks exactly how I see female Midlanders looking now)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lunartears

I'm not familar with it too well (sorry if these are prerelease examples) but the FF10 HD remaster/remake(?) replacing and changing character faces and graphics reminds me a lot of what happened in DT.
https://i.imgur.com/bA4E0Jm.png
(This one looks exactly how I see female Midlanders looking now)

---

Wow, the bottom one in particular really does have the exact same issues midlander faces have gone through. Much less vibrant eyes, weirdly airbrushed looking skin, eyebrows looking completely changed. I've never played FFX but that's a real shame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaziek

Wow, the bottom one in particular really does have the exact same issues midlander faces have gone through. Much less vibrant eyes, weirdly airbrushed looking skin, eyebrows looking completely changed. I've never played FFX but that's a real shame.

---

The X/X-2 remaster at least is offline and easy to mod without violating any ToS, and there are plenty of mods specifically to tweak faces and make them more faithful to the originals.

7.3 definitely did something to the eyelashes of my character. I don't have any good in-game comparisons, but I did save my Lodestone avatar from before and after the update and turned it into a gif. It's now darker around the eyes, as you can see:

https://i.imgur.com/yCay3C6.gif

I don't really feel strongly about it, but I figured I'd share in case someone else with a male viera (or specifically this face type) felt their eyes looked a bit different but couldn't put their finger on it.

In addition, I bought Zero's hairstyle during the anniversary sale and I'm generally very happy with it. However, it displays weirdly in the Lodestone avatar with some kind of odd shadow blotches on the face (making me wonder if part of the hair includes some unintended barely visible pixels that only show when subjected to strong lighting from a certain angle like this). Looks odd to me. Does this happen with everyone using it? Not sure if it's worth reporting as a bug.

https://i.imgur.com/x1SpmS3.jpeg

For what it's worth, it's not an issue with the full body image:

https://i.imgur.com/j8DHIbQ.jpeg

I didn’t expect any changes to my character from this patch as the previous patch did zero changes, so I didn’t really take a close look…(doesn’t help that most of the headgear I use covers the eyes)
But to my surprise they actually squared up the transition between eyebrows and nose so the eyebrows are no longer bleeding downwards onto the nose.
Additionally the blinking animation has been adjusted so the eyebrows aren’t being dragged along. There’s still a bit of pulling on the eyelid line as it was static originally, but honestly I’m not complaining and I’m happy that these things have been adjusted.
https://i.imgur.com/nuGuv18.png

I wanted to make a clearer comparison of the blinking on a different race, but uuuh I guess there’s been less of an adjustment there? I hope that gets looked into as face paint makes it much more noticeable (along with other face paint issues).
https://i.imgur.com/D4eJjgy.png

However I’m guessing due to the nose being wider, the eyebrows aren’t as long as they used to be. (God I miss the old nose)
https://i.imgur.com/naovp2c.png


(I know I’m repeating myself like a broken record here)
I don’t watch much cutscenes anymore, but the few I have (and cannot skip, which is used as an example here) keeps highlighting the issues I still have with the face (mainly detached face scales that stretches with the skin, uncanny expressions, completely different lip shape, oh and of course the static upper eyelid bug)
https://i.imgur.com/G1bXHaQ.png

I want to emphasise that the tips of these face scales have always been detached from the face pre-DT. However in DT the scales are literally floating off the face, while the rigging in DT treats the scales as if all of it is attached to the face.
https://i.imgur.com/6Vbcp9I.gif

EW left, DT right
https://i.imgur.com/mVGyz08.gif

DT
https://i.imgur.com/Bloc9Vc.gif



Despite each major patch having only brought tiny adjustments here and there, I do hope they continue to address the feedback given here on the forum. Hopefully they will consider bigger changes to make the faces look more like the old ones, but also offer a solution so players enjoying the new faces don't lose the features they now like.

I'm still waiting for a fix on some of the various male skin textures which have the rainbow flecks on them. Meanwhile most other faces have smooth skin that is one of the best features of the update.
Does Square even know the issue? It isn't something a lot of people may notice, except in zoom-ins. Thancred has it for instance. A lot of the Hyur and Viera faces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cyrtip

The mouths are the worst part of the "upgrade," and changing two pixels on the face texture will never fix it, but that's sadly how theyve been addressing feedback so far...

---

I agree. I took a 2.5 month break from the game and recently came back, and i miss the old lips/mouth on my main character even more. (face 4 au ra mouth 2)

Even though the old graphics were drawn on textures, the lips in particular honestly had more shape/detail than the new rendered graphics. I expected the new graphics to be capable of rendering the same or higher level of detail but instead the new lips/mouths look like flat plastic.

the lip colour barely has any gloss effect either.

i will say that the zones look amazing though, and the new gear textures are great, but i can't help but feel that the character assets were either rushed or didn't get as much focus which is really sad.

I would hope they can revise the lips/mouths to be comparable to its pre 7.0 appearance, but as of 7.3 i haven't seen many changes in general sadly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lunartears

I am yet again posting that there are still no changes to female Au Ra Face 1 since 7.0. Plastic surgery-like plump lips, soft mouth line, glue-stick eyebrows, big dead black eyes and the trademark 7.0 Au Ra lifeless expression still persist. I'm really happy for those seeing their WoLs returning in some form, but my WoL is still missing :(

I'd also like to mention that Face 2 also has changes that others have expressed dissatisfaction with, namely the dimpled mouth which was a charm point for those using it.

I have personal problems with the direction of all new Au Ra faces but these two stick out the most. They just don't match the original feel at all.

I really hope the development team considers adjusting these faces (or adding the old shapes) and reverting the huge pupil size of Au Ra that has been enforced on us since the Benchmark. Even if some of these features were a product of lower poly faces, they have undeniably become a part of the racial identity and smoothing them out has erased that. Please return their ethereal beauty!

---

my face 4 Au Ra has similar issues. her new mouth 2 looks like she's frowning at the corners. and her lip shape is basically straightened now and looks flat.