*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You'd be very surprised at how there are a lot of people who if they didn't know wouldn't care or feel that as long as they are alive it's all tha matters

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Oh for sure. But I believe that there are are things worse than death and just the whole idea of the sundering makes me physically wince.

I also have another angle to bring to the table as far as Venat is concerned. We know that actions have consequences and I feel like this whole struggle our character has had with the Ascians is pretty much a direct result of Venat and her supporter's choice in the beginning. They all knew that they would be viewed as basically traitors but felt like they were doing the right thing. Well, now our character and the rest of the sundered had to go through so much destruction and death because of what the Ascians viewed as trying to get justice for what Venat did. It's like having parents who are in the mafia or who did something morally questionable years ago and then you as their child ends up getting hurt or killed because the people your parents screwed over are coming for revenge. Like I get that she was trying to save the new life but damn it feels like they'd get screwed over regardless because they'd either get sacrificed or sundered and then die again in one of the calamities or lose people fighting the Ascians, or just end up working a 9-5 job constantly worried about paying bills and wondering if this is all life has to offer lol.

Like seriously when I look at it, it looks like "normal" people arguing over their toys. Maybe it would have been better for the devs to make the ancients look more alien isntead of looking just like us.

Ehhhh I'd still go with an inanimate crystal than via one who was once the actual heart of zodiark. That gets even a bit iffy there and I don't know if I could trust the impartiality of it... but that's just me *shrugs* and I barely know Elidibus.

@OHnooo see that's where people do have the different opinions to you the sundering may be seen as worse than death. When I think of it I try to put myself in their position and see how I would feel if it happened to me. Honestly I would say I would be glad to be alive. I may not entirely remember things but I would still remember some.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I wish we could find some type of unbiased crystal that had recorded everything

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Agreed! I've been wanting something like that for the longest time. I mean even just from rl experience, being the "mediator", I tend to be between friends, there have been so many arguments where people are blaming each other for things and then a non-biased 3rd party or a snapchat video sets the record straight about what happened.

There's still so much that I want explained about this story and the fact that this is literally the end of the arc is just crazy to me. How can you do this to us SE lol

I want to warn about that 'unbiased crystal' wish: I think that a lot of people asking for it, similarly to the people who want to know how Azem really felt about it all, want it because they think it would validate their view. 'Surely an unbiased third party would agree with me that X is right and Y is just ridiculous', that kinda thing.

I'm not saying that anyone here is necessarily coming from that direction, just that I think it's worth pausing and considering it: Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I want to warn about that 'unbiased crystal' wish: I think that a lot of people asking for it, similarly to the people who want to know how Azem really felt about it all, want it because they think it would validate their view. 'Surely an unbiased third party would agree with me that X is right and Y is just ridiculous', that kinda thing.

I'm not saying that anyone here is necessarily coming from that direction, just that I think it's worth pausing and considering it: Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

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It is a slippery slope is it not for people to have their ideals and values come crashing down around their ears when it doesn't come out exactly they way they think it would. While I hold certain ideas myself, I like to form a more solid opinion when I can hear and see things from all angles... atleast that's what I try to do. Admittedly, it doesn't always work that way. I'm human after all and maybe occassionally egotistical but who can't say that?

^_^

Speaking for myself, I simply wanted better characterization for Venat. I was ready to believe that the Sundering, from a certain point of view may have been necessary. Before Endwalker's release, I had a feeling that her reasoning would be something along the lines of the Ancients unfortunately existing in a state where their creation magicks were always going to go awry, and, like a chain reaction, spread into a calamity that would make up the Final Days. Granted, that kind of is how it happened, but I was posing it in a more broad and all-encompassing sense than one troubled Ancient and his poorly programmed creation. Anyway, in order for me to be content with this reasoning, I needed two things. One, assurance beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no other way to stop the Ancients' descent but to sunder the world, and two, that Venat would be the kind of person to come to this conclusion and make that decision. I don't believe the narrative successfully locked either of these things down.

For one, there are too many factors and bits of information that imply things could have gone differently. If Venat had simply stepped down with Elidibus rather than perform the Sundering, this becomes a matter that they have plenty of time to resolve in a peaceful manner. Even though Zodiark wasn't a permanent solution, he bought thousands of years of time for them to come up with a different path to follow, that perhaps Azem could help with? The Convocation would have to be at least receptive at this point, but even if it becomes a nightmare of politics and debate, its preferable to putting all of the power in the hands of a single person to decide the fate of the world. And it's not like Venat didn't want this either. She did. If she didn't, she wouldn't have tried reasoning with the Ancients in that metaphorical scene. She performed the Sundering out of desperation, not want. So why is Elidibus, someone on the Convocation who clearly is listening, never given further attention?

For two, Venat never came off to me as the kind of person who would perform an atrocity like the Sundering, even if it were for a noble purpose. She's a sweet, caring maternal figure, who I liked very much for her time in Elpis. The kind of character to really mean it when she says that "Nothing is impossible," and not decide after the fact that a future for her own people was impossible. I have a very hard time believing that someone who supposedly had boundless faith in mankind would then decide that mankind is unworthy to exist as they began, and that the only recourse would be to shatter them beyond recognition. She's not a true god. She is just another person. A character who would do this needs a visible flaw to truly hone in on, and I think a misstep was made in not making one readily apparent, as with Hermes.

Instead, what we got was feel-good mummery, Venat was only ever acting for the greater good, she's the only one who knows the truth, and because the themes are on her side, it's all water under the bridge and totally necessary, right? I know it may sound that I'm yearning for something that wasn't meant to be, but all of the pieces were there for something that would be truly understandable out of her, and the fact that so many are sharing their thoughts that it isn't a very good reasoning, tells me there was much room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

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No I want an unbiased source because I want to know what happened from an unbiased source instead of from two obviously biased POVs.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I want to warn about that 'unbiased crystal' wish: I think that a lot of people asking for it, similarly to the people who want to know how Azem really felt about it all, want it because they think it would validate their view. 'Surely an unbiased third party would agree with me that X is right and Y is just ridiculous', that kinda thing.

I'm not saying that anyone here is necessarily coming from that direction, just that I think it's worth pausing and considering it: Do you want an unbiased source because you think you know what the unbiased source would say?

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I don't get this take that people who ended up feeling sour about the Sundering were looking for an excuse to dislike Hydaelyn. I was ready and willing to like and agree with her, and still would be if they told a version of the story that actually made sense and didn't require huge, tone-directed assumptions on the part of the player to work around their vagaries.

Not everyone picks a made-up side in a narrative to cheer for, and then sticks with them like some kinda sports team. I just want a non-messy story.

Much as having an unbiased source confirm my preferred view would be epic, yeah I think what's more important is having an actual proper retelling of events so we can truly draw our own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

I don't get this take that people who ended up feeling sour about the Sundering were looking for an excuse to dislike Hydaelyn. I was ready and willing to like and agree with her, and still would be if they told a version of the story that actually made sense and didn't require huge, tone-directed assumptions on the part of the player to work around their vagaries.

Not everyone picks a made-up side in a narrative to cheer for, and then sticks with them like some kinda sports team. I just want a non-messy story.

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This. I have no interest in dealing with absolutes and I couldn't care less who was right or wrong in this situation. I also have no interest in sugarcoating genocide when the perpetrator just so happened to be a character I personally liked. Both sides committed atrocities and no amount of comparisons between their death counts will ever absolve either side of this conflict of their sins. In addition, Emet regarding sundered beings as lesser or subhuman is irrelevant to the fact that his people have no more or less a right to the planet as we do. Your feelings on the matter are your own and you're free to disagree with him but to argue that we deserve it more than him cuz he called us a bad name is pointless.

To me, Venat's actions weren't an objectively correct answer as she had no idea what the outcome would be and wouldn't have created an exit strategy had she known everything would turn out fine. The sundering was simply an answer, just one answer she chose. And until I learn that there truly was no point in warning the ancients beforehand, or that the ancients were guaranteed to sacrifice innocent lives despite Elidibus himself exhibiting apprehension at the 11th hour, I will continue to treat her decision of sundering the world as just an answer.