o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

wow, you dont get it?
when EVERYONE is grinding on nothing but finished products
do you really think they will all sell like hotcakes?

no, the prices will go into the dirt, people will buy them yes, but only a handful, if even that of the thousands being made to level on will sell. and they will sell so cheap that youd probly get more money vendoring them at that point cuz everyone else wants to sell theirs too

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I'm trying to get it, but all the generalizations being made about what may happen keep getting in my way. :p

Is EVERYONE really going to grind on NOTHING BUT Finished Products?? No Tier 1 or Tier 2 Refined Materials??

And no, I do not think they will ALL sell like hotcakes. Who buys hotcakes anyway?? :confused:

But you are right that the increased supply of Finished Products will decrease prices, but prices probably will not nose dive to the extent you described due to the increase in demand due to Materia Crafting. That demand will cause prices to level off at an equilibrium point.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

did people forget already?

Materia is made from armor and weapons, so even gear is now "consumable"

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they will be reusable as a different item not particularly consumable. the stated changes on gear was that you can level a set of gear and then turn it onto materia, but then can only equip one piece of materia into another piece of gear. they also mentioned a method in which you could add a second second materia.

so yes we'll use a hempen robe for example. you can use the hempen robe and turn it into materia once you gets its affinity high enough so you would only use one hempen robe if you did so. using that example though you would never need a second hempen robe because you would be beyond the level and not need another. even if everyone used 2 that's alot less than the thousands of each type of shard needed to level the craft.

that is nothing more than saying i have 2 brands for my thm because if one gets damaged and i don't have time to repair it i can just switch.

the definition of consumable is may be used up. if you convert an item from one thing to another it is not a consumable because the item would still be in game. shards, nuggets, bolls, grass, yarns, glues, and logs are considered consumables because you will personally use many of each if you are leveling up a craft. once you use it once you will need to get more of them to continue. a certain piece of gear is not because you will use one or two if you convert one to materia and will never have a need to grab another.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'm trying to get it, but all the generalizations being made about what may happen keep getting in my way. :p

Is EVERYONE really going to grind on NOTHING BUT Finished Products?? No Tier 1 or Tier 2 Refined Materials??

And no, I do not think they will ALL sell like hotcakes. Who buys hotcakes anyway?? :confused:

But you are right that the increased supply of Finished Products will decrease prices, but prices probably will not nose dive to the extent you described due to the increase in demand due to Materia Crafting. That demand will cause prices to level off at an equilibrium point.

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no people will still grind on those. the problem is alot of the classes those are not viable options for leveling at higher levels.

i will give a basic armorer grind list for an example.

1 copper nugget - raw mat will stay
5 bronze claw hammer head - part will probably be removed
9 iron nugget - raw mat will stay
13 bronze doming hammer head - part will probably be removed
15 iron needle - finished item so will likely stay
17 iron axe butt - part will probably be removed
21 iron head knife blade - part will probably be removed
25 iron arrowheads - part will probably be removed
29 steel nugget - raw mat will stay
30 iron swallowtail arrowheads - part will probably be removed
35 ornamental iron hammer head - part will probably be removed
40 steel gig head - part will probably be removed
43 silver javelin head - part will probably be removed
45 steel head knife blade - part will probably be removed

if you look at the grind list i used to level armorer til cap and the levels at which i started each item you can see the majority of that craft grind is going away. granted there are multiple tier 2 pieces like rings and stuff to replace those low level items, but as far as materials and cost that was the most beneficial method i found.

you are incorrect on the nose dive part on the point that if everyone is trying to sell something and things sell slow people will continue to drop prices until they get to the point that the npc is just as effective. once the cost of the item gets close to what people get at a npc they will go straight to selling there.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'm trying to get it, but all the generalizations being made about what may happen keep getting in my way. :p

Is EVERYONE really going to grind on NOTHING BUT Finished Products?? No Tier 1 or Tier 2 Refined Materials??

And no, I do not think they will ALL sell like hotcakes. Who buys hotcakes anyway?? :confused:

But you are right that the increased supply of Finished Products will decrease prices, but prices probably will not nose dive to the extent you described due to the increase in demand due to Materia Crafting. That demand will cause prices to level off at an equilibrium point.

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Copper Ingot lvl 1 recipe
Tin Ingot lvl 1 recipe
Bronze Ingot lvl 2 recipe
Iron Ingot lvl 12 recipe
Steel Ingot lvl 32 recipe

The nugget recipes are more of the same. As a blacksmith, you can't do these synths and expect to level from them. Your first few levels are ok, but how do you bridge the gap between 12 and 32? And then what about 32 and beyond? All those parts that helped you get up in level are going to be gone.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Copper Ingot lvl 1 recipe
Tin Ingot lvl 1 recipe
Bronze Ingot lvl 2 recipe
Iron Ingot lvl 12 recipe
Steel Ingot lvl 32 recipe

The nugget recipes are more of the same. As a blacksmith, you can't do these synths and expect to level from them. Your first few levels are ok, but how do you bridge the gap between 12 and 32? And then what about 32 and beyond? All those parts that helped you get up in level are going to be gone.

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I see your point. If I may counter though.

Since the recipes for finished goods are supposedly being made more rank appropriate by the Development Team, I would dare to speculate that Finished Products would fill in those gaps between Materials. There may even be new recipes introduced. Like Steel-Reinforced Crab Bows.

I know, I know. That was a poor counter. One can't counter existing fact with hypothetical speculation. Well one could, but they would lose that particular argument ... as I just have. :(

So yes, if the Development Team does not give us new recipes (Finished Goods or Refined Materials) or retool the old recipes to fill in the gaps you pointed out, grind-crafters will have a hard time of it and grind-crafting as a means of leveling would be broken.

Oi... my whole post was just deleted... so I'm gonna try and sum it up.

The biggest problem is that we have only the one example to work with, which is why I've tried not to argue too much on the semantics until Yoshi's follow up announcement.

But with the information we have now a Hempen Doublet goes from requiring 3 taupe sheepskins, 2 taupe sheep leather straps, 6 hempen cloths, 4 hempen yarn, and one copper buckle...

To needing 1 Sheep leather, 1 Hempen Cloth, 1 Hempen yarn, 1 Copper Ingot. (I didn't realize it was a full on ingot til I went back and looked up the new recipe again, In my head I guess I transposed it with a Copper nugget.)

This is the change that everyone looks at and thinks, "Hey, that's a lot easier!"

But what the are missing is that each of those materials is at best the second iteration of a material. As Sorel puts it "a Tier 2 refinement."

What they are replacing are tier 3 and tier 4 refinements.

Those tier 2 refinements can only be crafted for so long before you cease to get skill for them. At that point anyone still interested in crafting is going to turn those materials into something else that they can create to get skill. But under the new system the only thing they can make now are finished items.

So yes, for a certain range of ranks people won't be making final products, but sooner or later they will reach a rank where grinding materials becomes significantly less worthwhile and they will need to turn those materials into something else.

Right now the materials can be refined atleast once or twice more. Allowing crafters to gain rank on items through 3 or four tiers of refinement.

The problem with that system is that potentially a crafter never needs to make a final item, but that isn't a problem that is inherent in the crafting system, it's a problem with the economy of the game and with the poor implementation of the market wards.

So in order for the problem to be fixed you need to change the source of the problem. The biggest being market wards, the second facet of the problem being that demand for certain items aren't high enough to make most crafters want to make them.

I'm not saying there isn't demand, I'm saying the demand is not great enough to give adequate value to the items.

The materia system gave me alot of hope, because it basically increases demand for items across the board.

But then they announced these new changes that are intended to increase the supply. You don't increase the supply to stimulate an economy, you increase the demand.

When there is enough of a demand, the supply will follow.

p.s. so much for summing up...

p.p.s. I want to stress that I am all for simplifying the process of making parts, there's no reason a hempen doublet needs 4 pieces of leather to make. But the proposed changes go too far.

I like the way the craft system is/was....... Overall recipes should be tweaked and new ones added. The books was an anchievement and had to be worked for .. people whine for challenge then expect easy shit to be handed to them. I say leave it alone for the most part, update/add recipes, add the materia system along with other endgame content. I think the materia system should be more endgame content for crafters..... oh and how about let crafters make their own boats, buildings, and airships for player ran companies/ Linkshells. That sounds like awesome endgame content for crafters to me.

I'm pretty much 100% for this change.

This may have already been said but I'll reiterate it. The way the system is now is simply too tedious and involved. If you map out a craft tree for a lot of items it starts to border on insane. To make 1 thing you need 5 parts, each of which needs 4 or 5 ingredients, each of which is made from a base material synth. And within that mess you can have as many as 4 different crafting professions. It's ludicrous, and in dire need of simplification.

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Originally Posted by Travesty

I'm pretty much 100% for this change.

This may have already been said but I'll reiterate it. The way the system is now is simply too tedious and involved. If you map out a craft tree for a lot of items it starts to border on insane. To make 1 thing you need 5 parts, each of which needs 4 or 5 ingredients, each of which is made from a base material synth. And within that mess you can have as many as 4 different crafting professions. It's ludicrous, and in dire need of simplification.

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Just to point out, Travesty, half of the items in the "new recipe" aren't weaver made. Most people arguing against the change would agree with your comment about the complexity being too much.

But many of us feel that this change makes things too simple. If the parts weren't so obscure or involved the system could retain some of it's depth without seeming convoluted.

From the limited info they've given us, I don't think it goes too far. Even with the changes, it will still be by far the most complicated crafting system of any MMO I'm aware of.

Also, they may not be weaver made, but they'll be far easier to buy because they're less specific.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'm trying to get it, but all the generalizations being made about what may happen keep getting in my way. :p

Is EVERYONE really going to grind on NOTHING BUT Finished Products?? No Tier 1 or Tier 2 Refined Materials??

And no, I do not think they will ALL sell like hotcakes. Who buys hotcakes anyway?? :confused:

But you are right that the increased supply of Finished Products will decrease prices, but prices probably will not nose dive to the extent you described due to the increase in demand due to Materia Crafting. That demand will cause prices to level off at an equilibrium point.

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you may see people grind on those materials at low ranks
but those materials DO NOT go to 50, so yes, they will ALL be grinding finished products eventualy

the fact you even mention that just shows that you dont even really craft at all too...you dont understand anything going on here really unlike those of us who have been at it since day 1 and have overdone it