Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m not even necessarily discussing the fact that it wouldn’t make sense from a gameplay perspective, I mean from an actual in game lore perspective. Like how can the WOL be the most powerful person in the world if they literally can’t do damage

The idea that healers are also accomplished damage casters makes lore sense

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*Cut to A-Ruhn-Senna threatening to blast away a Garlean ambush with a tornado*

Also, White Mages literally fought in the War of the Magi, and they sure as hell didn't hold their ground by curing each other until the Black Mages got bored and went home. Lore and gameplay are different beasts, but good game design can maintain a balanced gameplay experience without creating a ludonarrative dissonance.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m not even necessarily discussing the fact that it wouldn’t make sense from a gameplay perspective, I mean from an actual in game lore perspective. Like how can the WOL be the most powerful person in the world if they literally can’t do damage

The idea that healers are also accomplished damage casters makes lore sense

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Also the fact that White Mages fought on equal footing against Black Mages to a draw.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

*Cut to A-Ruhn-Senna threatening to blast away a Garlean ambush with a tornado*

Also, White Mages literally fought in the War of the Magi, and they sure as hell didn't hold their ground by curing each other until the Black Mages got bored and went home. Lore and gameplay are different beasts, but good game design can maintain a balanced gameplay experience without creating a ludonarrative dissonance.

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Something something 'entreat the Elementals for aid, allowing the White Mage to both mend using the healing power the Elementals bestow, and maim with the fury of the natural elements of Earth, Wind and Water.

cost: 50 gauge'

Can we get a CD on WHM where we entreat the Elementals to dissolve the enemy into a pile of leaves because of the Greenwrath? It's lore compliant, honest

It's in the other thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...20#post6420720

Here was just some other stuff just to keep this thread alive https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29 This being the one that is infamous for the healer dps not taken into account for the raids back then.

Then we have this one right here when it came to making Protect give both the physical and magic defense and lower stoneskin's percent from 18 to 10. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-18-2015%29

One of the first thing the WoL learns in the CNJ quest is that Healers do more than heal. That questline literally drills into your head that healers are also meant to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Here was just some other stuff just to keep this thread alive https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29 This being the one that is infamous for the healer dps not taken into account for the raids back then.

Then we have this one right here when it came to making Protect give both the physical and magic defense and lower stoneskin's percent from 18 to 10. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-18-2015%29

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And then stoneskin was re-packaged as Divine Benison and given back to WHM at a later level. Also done with Divine Seal.

Stuff like that just highlights how creatively bankrupt the job design team is.

if the idea is that healers are supposed to do more damage because they get a rotation, then you're barking up the wrong tree because that isn't how they are making healers. If someone wants their job have more actions during slow periods besides a one button attack, I can understand that. But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Here was just some other stuff just to keep this thread alive https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29 This being the one that is infamous for the healer dps not taken into account for the raids back then.

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See, I think that response is very peculiar, even when considering the landscape from back then.

"For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set."

Why is an assumed item level being considered when fights have a minimum required item level? Why wouldn't that minimum item level be the same as this assumed general item level? I would think these would be one in the same, but apparently that isn't so...

"Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development."

My understanding of why a minimum item level exists would be to establish a bare minimum entry point of which the party can complete a fight based on the expected experience the designers had when testing that fight's difficulty. In other words, that combined DPS of Tank and DPS players minus 10-15%. Yet apparently, the playtested range is above the established minimum item level, which is completely strange to me. Doesn't that make it very easy to potentially make a clear literally impossible with certain comps at minimum item level? Like what happened during P8S... Was that why?

"So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible."

Yoshi P, you did create an environment in which healers need to be DPSing, because as stated, the clear would've "otherwise been impossible" at certain item level thresholds. It may not be required with a high enough average item level for the team, but as far as what the fight's minimum item level has established, you as a healer may be required to contribute DPS or your party cannot clear, and thus a player should go in expecting that responsibility in case their teams item level isn't high enough to clear without the support of healers.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

if the idea is that healers are supposed to do more damage because they get a rotation, then you're barking up the wrong tree because that isn't how they are making healers. If someone wants their job have more actions during slow periods besides a one button attack, I can understand that. But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

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Then it's a good thing that is not the idea, nor has that ever been the idea suggested by any player.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

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A healer doing the dps of a tank has always been the case. WHM has always been roughly on par with the tanks, SCH is about 10-15% behind the tanks and AST is about 30% behind, with SGE being roughly where WHM is. So it's not exactly something they aren't intended to be.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

if the idea is that healers are supposed to do more damage because they get a rotation, then you're barking up the wrong tree because that isn't how they are making healers. If someone wants their job have more actions during slow periods besides a one button attack, I can understand that. But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

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Please give me one valid reason why healers shouldn’t do the DPS of the tanks

We are both the support roles

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Please give me one valid reason why healers shouldn’t do the DPS of the tanks

We are both the support roles

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Ranged, heal and rez tax. zzz

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Ranged, heal and rez tax. zzz

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Hoh. Last I checked, WAR got a huge buff to to its DPS while all tanks other than DRK got a huge buff to their personal and party sustainability. By that logic, their DPS needs to be nerfed further too.

Also doesn't change the fact that tanks are not DPS and therefore the argument makes no sense why they need more DPS tools instead of just turning them into aggro tools.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Ranged, heal and rez tax. zzz

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None of which are valid when the question was "why healers shouldn’t do the DPS of the tanks", not "why healers shouldn’t do the DPS of the DPS"

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Please give me one valid reason why healers shouldn’t do the DPS of the tanks

We are both the support roles

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DPS can have support abilities and buffs, Tanks can have healing and damage but if Healers step one toe out of line and ask for additional... anything, there will be hell to pay.

Tanks and DPS get more modernized versions of their role while Healers get somehow left behind in FF1 when it comes to the trinity system.

I honestly believe the devs hate the Healer role.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

if the idea is that healers are supposed to do more damage because they get a rotation, then you're barking up the wrong tree because that isn't how they are making healers. If someone wants their job have more actions during slow periods besides a one button attack, I can understand that. But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

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Not that I care if healers do more damage than tanks or not but the healers did more damage than tanks for all of Shadowbringers lol
And healers are exactly the same as they were in Shadowbringers save minor fluff changes, so... did they suddenly become actual healers in Endwalker because they tuned the numbers down or is that completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things?

I don’t know it really confuses me on a daily basis that other roles just seem so indifferent to how badly healers are designed in this game, like PLD got its holy sword combo, WAR got monke flip, GNB got double down (I know double down is a garbage skill in how it ruins the class rotation flexibility) and DRK got shadowbringer, healers got at best 10 potency on their nuke (or if you are poor AST you just got corrected to the old ShB potency)

Imagine the controversy if they showed the DT Tanks and they got 5 potency on all GCD’s and a second rampart but a different colour, people would collectively riot

I know that the collective skill of the playerbase isn’t that high and that people just like completing content but so people not want fun attack buttons or to feel like they are doing something meaningful

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t know it really confuses me on a daily basis that other roles just seem so indifferent to how badly healers are designed in this game, like PLD got its holy sword combo, WAR got monke flip, GNB got double down (I know double down is a garbage skill in how it ruins the class rotation flexibility) and DRK got shadowbringer, healers got at best 10 potency on their nuke (or if you are poor AST you just got corrected to the old ShB potency)

Imagine the controversy if they showed the DT Tanks and they got 5 potency on all GCD’s and a second rampart but a different colour, people would collectively riot

I know that the collective skill of the playerbase isn’t that high and that people just like completing content but so people not want fun attack buttons or to feel like they are doing something meaningful

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You gotta love how 90% of every healer's Job Action Trailer showcase is just a new animation for your standard attack and stuff they already have.

Look! Whispering Dawn still exists! Recitation exists! Aldoquium is still there! Deployment Tactics hasn't been removed! Fey Blessing again! Oooh there's Chain Stratagem! Biolysis wasn't upgraded! I see the obligatory Broil upgrade! Yay, another new heal of some kind, who knows what it does?! Pretty wind power, and now Scholar runs faster!

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Originally Posted by Niroken

DPS can have support abilities and buffs, Tanks can have healing and damage but if Healers step one toe out of line and ask for additional... anything, there will be hell to pay.

Tanks and DPS get more modernized versions of their role while Healers get somehow left behind in FF1 when it comes to the trinity system.

I honestly believe the devs hate the Healer role.

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Definitely. The double standard is palpable.

Probably shoulda included a '/s; or a ':^)' to better convey my sarcasm. lol

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Probably shoulda included a '/s; or a ':^)' to better convey my sarcasm. lol

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Please understand that enough stupid stuff has been said and continues to get said about support jobs on the daily that it's become really hard to distinguish between a genuine joke or a really bad take if it's not overt. I'm sure it's nothing personal.

Support-oriented jobs in this game just feel like a garbage in general.

Never had I encountered a game where I don’t see selfish-oriented jobs going about “If we can party up with X job, we can kill stuffs more efficiently!” until I touch FFXIV. No, the philosophy here is “the less likely I need to interact, the better my enjoyment will be. So let’s eliminate every vestige of party interplay so everybody gets to be the main character!!”

If I want to really see any impact that I’m making, I’d have to look up some funny number & that ain’t fun. I certainly can’t wait SE to give out recovery tools ala PvP Recuperate to every other jobs just to make sure everybody gets to be the “main character” while making healers even more redundant. I’m sure they’ll give us pretty VFX update & maybe some over the top button at lv100 that addresses none of our concerns in hoping to distract the ignorant masses.

Small.Indie.Company. Can’t wait to see another variation of their “We don’t know what to do with <Insert Healer> but anyway, here’s a new summer glasses that you’d like…”

I’m morbidly curious what they decide to do with SCH since they already outright stated they threw stuff against the wall to see what stuck with EW

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Originally Posted by Niroken

I honestly believe the devs hate the Healer role.

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I don't think this is the case. It's more like they have this image of the healer role being this dutiful priest that heals the party whenever they take damage. But the reality is that most healers play limbo with the tank's health bar.

It's also probably the reason why SCH slowly warped into a "UWU I have a fairy" healer instead of evolving into a strategist that has an answer to every situation but excelling in anything requires sacrificing another thing, you know, like their lore?

If the devs came out saying they hate scholar I'd believe them.

I do think they have a disconnect with what they think their game design is and what it actually is. Like, having a very lax dps structure so you can focus on your healing is a good idea, but not for the fights they create.

They also have a huge issue actually preparing healers for healing. The jump from normal to extreme and extreme to savage is just to much. I remember complaints about harder healing in p10, but I think they wouldn't have been an issue if healers actually had a smoother difficulty curve to that point. I say smoother... but healing gets easier as you go up in levels, so maybe if it was a progression from easier to harder instead of harder to easier it would help those problems.

In fact I found that whole thing considering about P10shttps://www.gamespot.com/articles/ho.../1100-6517559/ It is interesting how they realized that harrowing hell in pf was a bit too much for the standard pf for that the fact that most groups had to use tank lb.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

In fact I found that whole thing considering about P10shttps://www.gamespot.com/articles/ho.../1100-6517559/ It is interesting how they realized that harrowing hell in pf was a bit too much for the standard pf for that the fact that most groups had to use tank lb.

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Because that's the environment they have fostered for 2 expansions now. After the ShB healer rework which was supposed to "make healers heal more" it instead became even easier after the initial gear upgrades.
Veteran healers left and the new healers had no other experience than the laughably easy gameplay that Shadowbringers gave them, so none of them were prepared for any kind of actual healing challenge.

And when you're accustomed to coasting through content it is very frustrating to suddenly hit a concrete wall and that wall becomes an easy quit moment, Abyssos already showed signs of it but P10S made it very clear.

Mitigation is also an important factor for "heal checks" and gets overlooked in most pf parties. It's probably the only responsibility shared by all party members evenly to...

Abyssos healer shortage was never the actual healers fault, it was always a problem that the DPS and the tanks refused to help mitigate anything then blamed the healers when the DOT’s ate people alive

The amount of times in PF I would break my own mitigation plan to apply sacred soil and either illumination or expedient to a tankbuster the tank was supposed to be mitigating alone because they weren’t using mitigation only to have them die then yell at me for not spamming adlo on them was way too much

Exactly the same as DPS who wouldn’t press addle or feint then go “why didn’t you just cast succor”

Mitigation being a team wide effort where failure exclusively punishes the healer has always been an annoying system, sure it’s the healers job to heal but it’s not fun pressing succor 5 times in a row simply because the SAM decided feint wasn’t important because they drifted their tsubame

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Abyssos healer shortage was never the actual healers fault, it was always a problem that the DPS and the tanks refused to help mitigate anything then blamed the healers when the DOT’s ate people alive

The amount of times in PF I would break my own mitigation plan to apply sacred soil and either illumination or expedient to a tankbuster the tank was supposed to be mitigating alone because they weren’t using mitigation only to have them die then yell at me for not spamming adlo on them was way too much

Exactly the same as DPS who wouldn’t press addle or feint then go “why didn’t you just cast succor”

Mitigation being a team wide effort where failure exclusively punishes the healer has always been an annoying system, sure it’s the healers job to heal but it’s not fun pressing succor 5 times in a row simply because the SAM decided feint wasn’t important because they drifted their tsubame

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That kind of Tank should be on your blacklist

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Abyssos healer shortage was never the actual healers fault, it was always a problem that the DPS and the tanks refused to help mitigate anything then blamed the healers when the DOT’s ate people alive

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Say it louder for the people in the back. Because I was talking to plenty of people who were blaming SE for pushing Abyssos healing checks too far. And that the healer shortage is a perfect reason why healer jobs must remain braindead simple to play.

When the true reason was that healers agency over party HP management was wrangled away from them while keeping all the blame.

Healers suffer from 4 major problems.

1. Over-streamlined DPS kits
2. Bloated healing kits
3. There's hardly any damage TO heal.
4. Bloodwhetting

The over streamlined damage kit makes playing the role feel miserable. You spend 80% of a fight or more DPSing, and your DPS kit has been condensed into a single button and a dot. Maybe an extra oGCD you can weave in every minute or so for extra potency but the gain is so small it hardly matters. It's easy to zone out when playing healer because there's no gameplay to be had.

The healing kits are bloated with more ways to heal than you'll ever need. Most healers don't even bother using their single target regen against bosses. Imagine having Aurora on a 2.5s CD and never pressing it. And why don't they you might ask?

Because the damage bosses do is a joke. Outside of scripted tankbusters or raidwides that you will plan your oGCD's for bosses deal so little damage a DPS could easily tank through the boss's autos. Boss auto attack damage is so low, a tank can completely negate it with a regen and their 123 healing. This results in healers having nothing to heal for most of a fight. And what do healers do when they have nothing to heal? They mash their 1 key until the boss dies or they fall asleep.

4 things need to happen.

1. Healers need more complex DPS kits. Not BLM complex, but something on RDM's or even SMN's level (without the insta casts) would be sufficient.

2. Healing kits can be stripped down a bit. We don't need 20 different ways to heal. I'd rather have fewer heals that interact meaningfully with the rest of my kit. Maybe even some healing procs that reward me with more DPS. For example, "Each tick of regen has a chance to reset the cooldown of Assize. Reduced chance for Medica II"

3. Bosses need to hurt enough that a simple tank regen isn't enough to negate their damage completely. You cannot balance tanks or supports around such comically low levels of damage.

4. Wall to wall pulls are one of the few things that deal enough consistent damage to make a healer pay attention. Bloodwhetting turns them into a joke. Maybe put cap on it like "Cannot restore more than X% of your maximum health in a single swing."

Bloodwhetting just needs to be changed from 'weaponskill delivered' to 'weaponskill used.' That way, it's still okay on single target, but no longer broken in dungeons/aoe.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

4. Wall to wall pulls are one of the few things that deal enough consistent damage to make a healer pay attention. Bloodwhetting turns them into a joke. Maybe put cap on it like "Cannot restore more than X% of your maximum health in a single swing."

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Or make Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered sentence... literal. One weaponskill landed - one heal. Not 20 instances of heal per mob each, only one.
Add Cure potency increase when weaponskill hits multiple enemies to compensate a bit.

There. Nothing changed for single target, aka raids. Both Whetting and Nascent are nice sustain and mitigation tools, but not a hilarious "God mode every 25 seconds" button.

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

Or make Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered sentence... literal. One weaponskill landed - one heal. Not 20 instances of heal per mob each, only one.
Add Cure potency increase when weaponskill hits multiple enemies to compensate a bit.

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It says delivered. You’d need it changed to cast or whatever. And there’s no reason to faff on with the potencies when it can just be reverted to how it was in shadowbringers.

Or, and they have the tech to do this, reduce its heal potency to like 100 when hitting multiple enemies.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Or, and they have the tech to do this, reduce its heal potency to like 100 when hitting multiple enemies.

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Then you suddenly have deleted their short auxiliary cooldown in raid setting, essentially.

The only way I can see them fixing Bloodwhetting are through one of the following changes:

• One: Bloodwhetting now procs at # of weaponskill initiated. This is probably the most commonly requested change. It will now top at 2,000 tank's effective cure potency every 25s with small -10% mit.
• Two: Same as first one but increase the self shield's potency if people think that's too much of a nerf.
• Three: Roll back both Raw Intuition and Nascent Flash to its ShB iterations, let their duration raised to 8s by lv82, then have Bloodwhetting becomes a new empty space for SOMETHING ELSE. This is the change that I would personally like to see because their sustain back in ShB was 'perfect'. They don't need anything more ridiculous like today's Bloodwhetting, regen on Shake it Off & Equilibrium.

In case people who didn't know how old Nascent Flash works: the absorption rate was relative to WAR's damage dealt. It still proc by the amount of targets you hit in AoE, HOWEVER, you cannot Benediction yourself with just any AoE weaponskills every GCD. Using Overpower combo within old Nascent Flash would've at best heal yourself like a wet noodle. You HAVE to use it under Chaotic Cyclone (this usually heals to full) or at least auto crit'd Infuriate-Decimate (this heals a good amount but not to the point of Benediction-degree) to get a desirable worth out of a cast.

Nascent Flash and Raw Intuition also shares a cooldown. So you were presented a choice to heal yourself/your partner with NO mits on yourself, or you get to use the latter that is a strong mit% to yourself at 25s cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Then you suddenly have deleted their short auxiliary cooldown in raid setting, essentially.

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It would still have the same heal potency on single target, but as soon as you start hitting more than one target, the reduction kicks in. It's cleave potential would only become better than single target on 5 or more enemies.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

[*]Three: Roll back both Raw Intuition and Nascent Flash to its ShB iterations, let their duration raised to 8s by lv82, then have Bloodwhetting becomes a new empty space for SOMETHING ELSE. This is the change that I would personally like to see because their sustain back in ShB was 'perfect'. They don't need anything more ridiculous like today's Bloodwhetting, regen on Shake it Off & Equilibrium.[/LIST]
In case people who didn't know how old Nascent Flash works: the absorption rate was relative to WAR's damage dealt. It still proc by the amount of targets you hit in AoE, HOWEVER, you cannot Benediction yourself with just any AoE weaponskills every GCD. Using Overpower combo within old Nascent Flash would've at best heal yourself like a wet noodle. You HAVE to use it under Chaotic Cyclone (this usually heals to full) or at least auto crit'd Infuriate-Decimate (this heals a good amount but not to the point of Benediction-degree) to get a desirable worth out of a cast.

Nascent Flash and Raw Intuition also shares a cooldown. So you were presented a choice to heal yourself/your partner with NO mits on yourself, or you get to use the latter that is a strong mit% to yourself at 25s cooldown.

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This. Not only is it a nerf to WAR's healing on average but because it rewards good play. It makes you actually think about when it's more effective to use Nascent and when you should just go with Raw Intuition.

Granted in Shadowbringers the answer was almost always Nascent Flash but that's because bosses hit like a wet noodle and you could easily survive busters with just Vengeance.