o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Where do you think all your finished items are going to end up? Sold in the ward? LOL

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I'll have you know that ALL of my finished goods (mostly axes and hammers) sell very well in Limsa Lominsa's Market Wards.

There is more demand for finished goods than for parts, but grind-crafters are so dependent on parts as a crutch for their grinding, they leave the demand for equipment that players can actually use unfulfilled.

Now I'm happy to profit from others inability to see past their own SP/hour. But I also recognize that the larger problem of not enough finished goods in the economy and grind-crafters' self-disconnection from that economy needs to be fixed. If that means kicking the crutch out from under grind-crafters ... so mote it be.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'll have you know that ALL of my finished goods (mostly axes and hammers) sell very well in Limsa Lominsa's Market Wards.

There is more demand for finished goods than for parts, but grind-crafters are so dependent on parts as a crutch for their grinding, they leave the demand for equipment that players can actually use unfulfilled.

Now I'm happy to profit from others inability to see past their own SP/hour. But I also recognize that the larger problem of not enough finished goods in the economy and grind-crafters' self-disconnection from that economy needs to be fixed. If that means kicking the crutch out from under grind-crafters ... so mote it be.

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What I don't think you are understanding is this: Parts being removed means crafters will grind on finished items. This will lead to an excess of finished items. The wards will be flooded, nothing will sell. And all those finished items will be more than anyone can carry since it will eat up all their inventory space so instead of vendoring parts from grinding, they will be vendoring their finished items.

It sounds like you mostly do your leveling in crafts from leves. Is that a correct assumption?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

What I don't think you are understanding is this: Parts being removed means crafters will grind on finished items. This will lead to an excess of finished items. The wards will be flooded, nothing will sell. And all those finished items will be more than anyone can carry since it will eat up all their inventory space so instead of vendoring parts from grinding, they will be vendoring their finished items.

It sounds like you mostly do your leveling in crafts from leves. Is that a correct assumption?

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This is were I do not follow your logic. Why would nothing sell?? The markets are flooded with crystal sellers, and they manage to sell their goods.

And you are correct, I mostly level my crafts from leves. I on occassion (not to any large extent) grind nuggets and ingots because they sell very well on the markets, and I always have use for the excess.

Very interested in this "End Game" type of crafting content! Hope we get more detailed info with this tuesday post.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

This is were I do not follow your logic. Why would nothing sell?? The markets are flooded with crystal sellers, and they manage to sell their goods.

And you are correct, I mostly level my crafts from leves. I on occassion (not to any large extent) grind nuggets and ingots because they sell very well on the markets, and I always have use for the excess.

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Comparing crystals to finished products is a bit silly, and for you to even use it as an example just means you really don't understand how economies work. There will always, always, always be demand for crystals. They get used up, they can only be used once.

Granted Wynn saying that nothing will sell is a bit hyperbolic, things will still sell... but let's say you need to make 30 hempen doublets to get to rank 10, Now you have the problem of what to do with 30 hempen doublets... yeah you can try selling them on the wards, you may sell a few, but chances are you won't sell through all of them before you have 50 cotton cowls that you need to sell too... and those cowls won't sell before you are done grinding cotton doublets.

The turnover rate for finished items will slow to a crawl, and in order to make room to continue crafting you will either need to wait a really long time to sell your excess in the wards... or you will instead junk everything by selling them to vendors.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

This is were I do not follow your logic. Why would nothing sell?? The markets are flooded with crystal sellers, and they manage to sell their goods.

And you are correct, I mostly level my crafts from leves. I on occassion (not to any large extent) grind nuggets and ingots because they sell very well on the markets, and I always have use for the excess.

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here is simple logic that should be easy to follow.

example1: go buy 100 earth shards and then go do 8 synths of iron squares.... you are out of shards and must go get more.

example2: go buy the r22 goldsmith hammer and do 8 synths doing anything..... you still have your hammer and do not need another. you will use that hammer for quite a few levels before the need to upgrade again. when you do upgrade that used hammer gets repaired and goes back into the system.

consumables will always sell better than non consumables. the reason being is, in basic math, if you have 500 people on your server then you will only have the need for 500 goldsmith hammers throughout its life. in that same time you will need hundreds of thousands of shards. if you use anything and when you are done you need more of them then there will always be a market. i even used 500 hammers knowing that when one finishes the craft they will sell their hammer off more than likely so you may have 4-5 people using the same hammer.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Comparing crystals to finished products is a bit silly, and for you to even use it as an example just means you really don't understand how economies work. There will always, always, always be demand for crystals. They get used up, they can only be used once.

Granted Wynn saying that nothing will sell is a bit hyperbolic, things will still sell... but let's say you need to make 30 hempen doublets to get to rank 10, Now you have the problem of what to do with 30 hempen doublets... yeah you can try selling them on the wards, you may sell a few, but chances are you won't sell through all of them before you have 50 cotton cowls that you need to sell too... and those cowls won't sell before you are done grinding cotton doublets.

The turnover rate for finished items will slow to a crawl, and in order to make room to continue crafting you will either need to wait a really long time to sell your excess in the wards... or you will instead junk everything by selling them to vendors.

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FERTH!!

Just had to get that out there. I enjoy reading your posts. Even though I may disagree with them, I find the I still hit the "like" button. I was hoping to have a chance to spar with you in this debate.

Anyway, back to on topic.

The problem you brought up is more a limitation of the Market Wards system than of the crafting system. Though I do see your point. I would like to share my point though.

Using your example, a crafter makes 30 [item=8030001]Hempen Doublet[/item]. They take up 30 slots of his inventory. He puts 20 up for sale in the Market Wards. He sells 10 to NPC vendors. Even if it takes 24 hours for one of his retainers to sell 10 of them ... that's still 10 players who have Hempen Doublets that would not have otherwise.

Right now, parts grinding takes raw materials that the server generates for us and returns those resources back to the server in the form of parts sold to NPC vendors. Only a minority of those resources actually get used in the wider economy. Doesn't that seem wrong from an economic standpoint??

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Originally Posted by Sorel

This is were I do not follow your logic. Why would nothing sell?? The markets are flooded with crystal sellers, and they manage to sell their goods.

And you are correct, I mostly level my crafts from leves. I on occassion (not to any large extent) grind nuggets and ingots because they sell very well on the markets, and I always have use for the excess.

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wow, you dont get it?
when EVERYONE is grinding on nothing but finished products
do you really think they will all sell like hotcakes?

no, the prices will go into the dirt, people will buy them yes, but only a handful, if even that of the thousands being made to level on will sell. and they will sell so cheap that youd probly get more money vendoring them at that point cuz everyone else wants to sell theirs too

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

consumables will always sell better than non consumables. the reason being is, in basic math, if you have 500 people on your server then you will only have the need for 500 goldsmith hammers throughout its life. in that same time you will need hundreds of thousands of shards. if you use anything and when you are done you need more of them then there will always be a market. i even used 500 hammers knowing that when one finishes the craft they will sell their hammer off more than likely so you may have 4-5 people using the same hammer.

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I agree that consumables will always sell better than non-consumables. But thanks to the Armory System there are more consumers of non-consumables than appear at first glance. When I start ranking my Thaumaturge I'm going to need equipment. The equipment that I used to rank Gladiator simply won't work. I'll need to buy a new set of equipment again.

Plus, with the introduction of the Materia System, equipment starts becoming consumable. Yes, they won't be consumed at the rate of crystals or food or potions, but they will start leaving the economy.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

wow, you dont get it?
when EVERYONE is grinding on nothing but finished products
do you really think they will all sell like hotcakes?

no, the prices will go into the dirt, people will buy them yes, but only a handful, if even that of the thousands being made to level on will sell. and they will sell so cheap that youd probly get more money vendoring them at that point cuz everyone else wants to sell theirs too

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not only that veds, but once you take into account how many hempen doublets could one person use? you use one and then you move on. yes, as new people join the game that one person will need one more, but it will likely be someone that has already used the item and just doesn't want to npc it so gets some super cheap price for their old gear or just tosses theirs to them.

since i see alchemist as r50 my logical question is how many thermal alembics have you bought? one maybe 2(if you want a backup).

in that same time i wonder how many earth shards you used ranking up your armorer? 50,000+?

i wasn't pointing out you specifically, because i don't disagree with your point i just wanted to expand on it.