What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Yeah, you guys make good points, it's hard to argue against it. I was trying to convince myself it wasn't going to be a loop because in my head I don't think causal loops make sense but then again I don't know that much about quantum physics so who knows.

One thing that truly bothers me is: Was Venat's conviction of her ideals truly her own or was it all because of the WoL? Did she really mean it when she said all those things about humanity not being able to thrive unless we accept that pain and suffering are part of life, or was she just trying to follow the "right" timeline based on what she knows? Was Hydaelyn only created because we told her about it?

And if he answer to any of these is "No, her convictions were indeed her own and she truly believes in what she said" then what difference did the WoL really make?

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I believe she meant all she said, she knew how dynamis was the solution to defeat Meteion, and that sundered humans could wield it.

Hydaelyn was probably created because we told her how it ends for the ancients in our time.

At first when you tell her about the future, she didn't understand why she would interfer with the summoning of Zodiark.
That means that if we didn't come and tell her what will happen, she would probably have sacrifice herself to Zodiark.

Knowing that the WoL's future exists, gave her hope that if the ancients falls, humanity could still exist and win.
This future was a last ressort solution she had to keep in mind.

From the start, she decide to not alter the timeline too much in comparaison of what we told her.
She did that so she could follow the sundering plan if everything goes badly and try to unite her timeline with ours.
Had she told people in the convocation or for example sundered Emet Selch, our timeline would never have converged.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

And if he answer to any of these is "No, her convictions were indeed her own and she truly believes in what she said" then what difference did the WoL really make?

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People choose their own ideals. Others may offer their own thoughts and feelings on a matter, but it is ultimately up to the individual to decide what they do and do not believe in. What the WoL did was provide her with a rather significant chunk of information to digest, both through their description of future events and their own actions/nature. The conclusions drawn and resulting actions taken fall squarely on Venat's shoulders, with the WoL having merely contributed. On the other hand, it could also be said Venat influenced the WoL quite a bit. They are in essence the culmination of her ideals.

And so we arrive right back where we started: the causal loop. A casual loop by its definition has no determinate beginning or end. It merely is. Both are at least in part responsible for the beliefs and actions of the other, and which stepped up to the proverbial plate first is rendered moot by paradox.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

People choose their own ideals. Others may offer their own thoughts and feelings on a matter, but it is ultimately up to the individual to decide what they do and do not believe in. What the WoL did was provide her with a rather significant chunk of information to digest, both through their description of future events and their own actions/nature. The conclusions drawn and resulting actions taken fall squarely on Venat's shoulders, with the WoL having merely contributed. On the other hand, it could also be said Venat influenced the WoL quite a bit. They are in essence the culmination of her ideals.

And so we arrive right back where we started: the causal loop. A casual loop by its definition has no determinate beginning or end. It merely is. Both are at least in part responsible for the beliefs and actions of the other, and which stepped up to the proverbial plate first is rendered moot by paradox.

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I do find it funny that when you are telling Venat about the future, it seems like you either gloss over the Garliean side or just laugh it off. If Venat did know about the future of how her own kind is going to use an entire race as fodder to bring back a bastardized version of themselves you would assume she would go "Eh, that's an okay idea but now that I know the future I can use this person's recollection of the future to do it better!". I agree with the other posters, time travel is strong juju and even good writers struggle with using that as a plot point.

"A: Well, I think the most important thing is that you can come up with your own theories for this one."

Translation: "Please make sense of it for us."

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I agree with the other posters, time travel is strong juju and even good writers struggle with using that as a plot point.

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Time travel has a tendency to blow up in the faces of those trying to integrate it into their stories. It can be done, but boy does it become a headache when it's poorly implemented.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

"A: Well, I think the most important thing is that you can come up with your own theories for this one."

Translation: "Please make sense of it for us."

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A prize for the lalafell with the accurate assessment of this situation.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

As for Elidibus' comments about making changes; they could just as easily be interpreted as a warning. For if you were to make changes in such a way as to prevent the sundering or otherwise change any circumstances leading up to the present, you may not have a world to return to at all. Or if you did, it might not be yours. ....Or you might simply cease to exist, which would by default undo whatever you did. Luckily, the predestination paradox is there to prevent you from ruining everything. Then we've the previously discussed option of him simply not realizing Emet-Selch was going to reinforce your aether and thereby give you the ability to meaningfully interact with the world of the past.

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So in your opinion (and anyone else's who wants to reply) what do you think would happen if the WoL went insano mode and, let's say, killed Meteion then and there. Do you think we would've created a different branch in timeline (similar to Graha's timeline) and therefore creating a third version of the WoL, or do you think we would come back to "our" reality only to realize it's completely different (the world was never sundered perhaps). Or would it be something else?
I don't know if there is any indication in the lore that would point to which of these would be the "right" option, which is why I'm asking what you think personally.

I like to believe that we would've created a separate timeline, one where the WoL is stranded in Elpis unable to return, for they have no way to travel between timelines.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

So in your opinion (and anyone else's who wants to reply) what do you think would happen if the WoL went insano mode and, let's say, killed Meteion then and there. Do you think we would've created a different branch in timeline (similar to Graha's timeline) and therefore creating a third version of the WoL, or do you think we would come back to "our" reality only to realize it's completely different (the world was never sundered perhaps). Or would it be something else?
I don't know if there is any indication in the lore that would point to which of these would be the "right" option, which is why I'm asking what you think personally.

I like to believe that we would've created a separate timeline, one where the WoL is stranded in Elpis unable to return, for they have no way to travel between timelines.

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That depends on what kind of system the Final Fantasy XIV universe operates on. Thus far we've seen one example of multiverse theory in action, and some of what Venat says about a convergence (which Lauront already quoted, I believe) could be taken to imply the potential for another to have formed already if not for mitigating circumstances. Based on this, I would tend to say we've got two a few options, but some I believe are more likely than others.

1.) The convergence Venat speaks of causes the WoL's sudden slaying of Meteion to, in essence, destroy the timeline from whence they came. They cease to exist as a result, their presence in Elpis never occurs to begin with, and the Final Days proceed exactly as they would have without the casual loop to ensure the birth of Hydaelyn and subsequent sundering. Whether this means the loop reasserts itself due to Venat reaching those conclusions on her own, the Ancients manage to solve the problem in the time Zodiark gives them, or the Endsinger ultimately destroys it all is anyone's guess.

2.) The convergence functions as above, except the WoL continues existing as a paradox unto themselves. Everything the WoL knew and loved is erased the instant Meteion dies, but they are protected by the paradox and retain full memory of the world from whence they came. From here it's anyone's guess as to how events would play out, but I suspect Venat, armed with knowledge from a future that no longer exists, would make the same choices. Well, assuming the Final Days could come at all.

3.) Significant deviation from events required to maintain the casual loop prevents any sort of convergence, and a new timeline is split off from the old at the precise point Meteion bites the dust. Events proceed as with option 2, save that the 8UC (original) and derivative (the WoL's point of origin) timelines continue to exist. One can only speculate as to whether or not the WoL could return to the future, as this would presumably require the new timeline to have had events play out in a manner conducive to a corridor between present and past having been opened. A corridor leading back to the WoL's point of origin is highly unlikely.

In any case, this is getting really far into headcanon, which I've never been a big fan of.

Did I miss the talk of how they make this whole scene about Barbariccia being super terrifying and scary and playing Mor Dhona's original creepy theme as if she's a big deal only for her to last one cutscene and a trial?

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Did I miss the talk of how they make this whole scene about Barbariccia being super terrifying and scary and playing Mor Dhona's original creepy theme as if she's a big deal only for her to last one cutscene and a trial?

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It's like I said in another topic: they throw these characters from other games in the franchise, don't introduce them properly, and we end up killing them without even knowing how to pronounce their names correctly.

It was such a quick death, that I only knew she was a character known to the public, after seeing on the forum that someone opened a topic with her name in the title, and everyone was saying that this was a spoiler.

I mean, in the original FFIV, Barb only shows up right at the end of The Tower of Zot where you fight her as a relatively easy boss. She shows up again in The Giant of Babil with the other fiends as a gauntlet boss that's slightly more challenging.

But both times she maybe has 2 or 3 lines of dialogue and gets killed.