Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

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I don't understand what exactly is so hard to tell the difference between two different things. One is a person just not using offensive spells, the other is someone who is going afk and letting the AI do the work for them. The person who is not using offensive spells is not afk, they're not letting some AI do the work, they are doing something, maybe not 100% of the time, but they are still NOT AFK. I don't understand how is that such a hard thing to grasp. I don't get it, its something so minor but people here blow it up and over exaggerate and overreact about it. Out of all the things to bother people, a person not using offensive spells on a class that it's not even mandatory is enough to throw some people into a fit. The fact that people use the most loosely connected examples to try to justify kicking over this is depressing. But whatever works for you people here.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

The conjurer quest line is literally about how bad and wrong it is for a conjurer to ONLY heal and never use the offensive spells in their toolkit.

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Not even in the slightest. That tired screenshot that gets posted of Sylphie saying she only wants to heal is that she is using her own life force to power her spells rather than get her power from nature around her. Brother E-Sumi discourages her from healing because he doesn't want her to kill herself and she says that line.

The level 50 white mage quest has you heal a tree. You can help with the mobs attacking but the NPCs can handle it. The 60 quest pits you against an undead dragon. Again, you can help with the mob but the NPCs can handle it. Your job is healing the corrupted aether so it can finally be defeated.

Our quests are based around healing and make it clear that offensive capabilities are there for when the situation might call for them, but we're healers first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

I don't understand what exactly is so hard to tell the difference between two different things. One is a person just not using offensive spells, the other is someone who is going afk and letting the AI do the work for them. The person who is not using offensive spells is not afk, they're not letting some AI do the work, they are doing something, maybe not 100% of the time, but they are still NOT AFK. I don't understand how is that such a hard thing to grasp. I don't get it, its something so minor but people here blow it up and over exaggerate and overreact about it. Out of all the things to bother people, a person not using offensive spells on a class that it's not even mandatory is enough to throw some people into a fit. The fact that people use the most loosely connected examples to try to justify kicking over this is depressing. But whatever works for you people here.

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How do you tell a difference between a SCH who is afk and one who is "just healing" with their fairy? Rather, why do you care, if the fairy is able to handle the healing? What difference does it make if they're afk or not? It's not a loosely connected example because SCH's fairy is able to heal 95% of the content in the game.

There are two unrelated points that get debated whenever this comes up.

You are welcome to heal however you want. No argument there. You can't make someone do something that they don't already want to do. The fact that there are so many here who have apparently dug in their heals [sic] and refused to dps is testament to that.

I don't really see it as a major obstacle to clearing anything that's presently out. At max gear level, the dps checks are straightforward enough that they allow for cross-compensation by more skilled players. A "main healer" who doesn't output any dps is probably less of a burden to the group than a "main tank" who sits in Shield Oath and just uses their enmity combo. Neither is optimal, but players generally expect more from their tanks.

You might get a bit of flak for not dpsing as a healer, but generally speaking, your team can work around you, especially on easier fights. Stoneskin yourself and move on.

That's not actually the point that people are interested in debating, however.

What you cannot do, is claim that a healer who doesn't output any dps is as skilled as one who knows how to safely push their dps. If two healers are mechanically capable of clearing the same fight, the one who does so while maintaining higher dps is the better healer, no contest. They just understand the timing windows in the fight significantly better - that's where your CS uptime comes from. If players are looking to clear fights faster and more comfortably, they're going to inevitably go to the healer who is confident enough to dps while still meeting the healing checks of the fight. Sorry, not sorry.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

A SCH afking and letting the fairy do the healing is not the same thing as a person physically being there and doing the healing themselves.

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Is it really not, though? A group can't finish the duty normally when neither healer are present. Be it a White Mage that (only) heals manually or a Scholar that lets the fairy do it. The end result is that in case of either that the duty can be completed. And in case neither healer are putting effort into damage contribution, the clearing speed/time is roughly the same. Kicking one for putting in no effort in comparison who puts in a little effort is one of the very base reasoning why healers should be contributing in damage: Effort, or to be more precise equality in effort.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't really see it as a major obstacle to clearing anything that's presently out.

You might get a bit of flak for not dpsing as a healer, but generally speaking, your team can work around you, especially on easier fights
What you cannot do, is claim that a healer who doesn't output any dps is as skilled as one who knows how to safely push their dps

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This is similar to how I've always approached the 'healer dps' debate. My own personal opinions aside, I don't really care if a healer isn't dps'ing during EX Roulette or A12 normal. I might give them the evil eye through the TV Screen a bit, but is it really that big a deal in such content? Having to spend an extra two minutes in a video-game dungeon really doesn't mean anything when people have 80+ year lifespans. and half the time I barely notice that extra time.

You won't be considered a good healer by any means if you aren't using Cleric Stance. But so what? Some people just don't want to be The Ultimate Eorzean Healer. Why should they if they don't enjoy it? As long as they don't attempt difficult content that requires a good healer (EX Trials, Savage, etc) then it makes no difference to me. As long as they're making some sort of effort and not flat-out AFK then is it really such a big deal?

Disclaimer: the rest of my discussion is purely based on my own experiences and opinions. You'd think this would be self-evident, but I feel more and more need to add this onto anything I say when posting in the forums.

In all honesty, there's only two reasons I always try to maximize my dps as a healer. Firstly, is that I always feel like people are judging me or think I'm stupid / lazy when I'm not doing the absolute best on whichever class I'm playing. This is just a personal thing.

The second is the more self-evident one is that there's literally nothing else to do as a healer. Trust me, I've tried to run EX Roulettes without using Cleric Stance, and I can't ever get past the first or second pull without switching Cleric Stance on purely out of boredom.

The irony is that - to me - DPS'ing as a healer is just as boring as standing around doing nothing. I don't personally understand how it makes someone a 'great healer'; you're only locked into it for 5 seconds and every healer can provide healing whilst in Cleric Stance anyway (Regen / Fairy / Mitigating Damage), so personally I'm confused about where the 'great skill requirements' come from. But obviously this is just personal opinion.

Frankly, I just don't like Cleric Stance. I'd prefer to spend my time buffing the party than spamming nukes.

Ultimately, I'm still of the opinion that this entire debate could be resolved by having more varied playstyles between healers. Everybody wins. They can go a dps-healer if they want to, or a support-healer if they'd prefer not to dps, or a dps-healer with some support abilities if they'd prefer a middle ground.

I just don't understand why it has to be one or the other. The developers of the game have done many innovative things in the past; why can't we add accomodating the playstyles of all players to this list?

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Is it really not, though? A group can't finish the duty normally when neither healer are present. Be it a White Mage that (only) heals manually or a Scholar that lets the fairy do it. The end result is that in case of either that the duty can be completed. And in case neither healer are putting effort into damage contribution, the clearing speed/time is roughly the same.

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I have stated thi before but will repeat even if you are just watching health bars you have to still be 'on call' at any moment to heal, some could argue this is mental effort you need to be 'present' in more than one capacity. Now in the real world you often get paid for being on call out duty, because its not the same as relaxing and doing your own thing. Its really not the same as being afk in my opinion, or doing nothing at all. Maybe the effort is more mental than physical, cant be measured though. When I play tank I think its more mental effort than physical

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Originally Posted by Connor

This is similar to how I've always approached the 'healer dps' debate. My own personal opinions aside, I don't really care if a healer isn't dps'ing during EX Roulette or A12 normal. I might give them the evil eye through the TV Screen a bit, but is it really that big a deal in such content?


The irony is that - to me - DPS'ing as a healer is just as boring as standing around


I just don't understand why it has to be one or the other.

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I agree with that and especially the points of why its considered so brilliantly amazing to do both if its so 'easy'. I dont like cleric either, its an awkward mechanic and doesnt feel like it should be there, to me, but thats my opinion :) and 6 out of 7 people I talk to about it dont like it either. I agree the battle system could be worked on to accommodate everyone's choice of play

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I have stated thi before but will repeat even if you are just watching health bars you have to still be 'on call' at any moment to heal, some could argue this is mental effort you need to be 'present' in more than one capacity. Now in the real world you often get paid for being on call out duty, because its not the same as relaxing and doing your own thing. Its really not the same as being afk in my opinion, or doing nothing at all. Maybe the effort is more mental than physical, cant be measured though. When I play tank I think its more mental effort than physical

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Sure, let's look at it from a mental capacity standpoint then.
Healer A tunnels on the healthbars and reactively casts spells
Healer B has eyes on youtube/netflix, glances once in a while to move, and casts spells once in a while

Both healers get the job done. Now how can you, as someone in the party, tell the difference between the two? I'm sorry, but "mental effort" is not much of an argument, considering this contradicts your other statement:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes and I dont want to develop high blood pressure caused by the stress of seeing someone dying cos Ive just gone in cleric and have to wait 5 secs to get out of it. :)

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If simply watching the health bars fluctuate requires so much mental strain/effort that you are incapable of doing other things. This will very well help you develop high blood pressure.

That aside, I've mentioned that both the lazy and the other healer both can get the job done. But you (and Seoulstar) are keen on kicking the more lazy one. Or at least very judging on this kind of healer. May I call hypocrisy? If there are players out there who are willing to kick "lazy healers", why would you kick healers that are even more lazy? It's not like you know what's going on in their head, thus you can't judge whether they are uncomfortable with damage contribution or not. Yet the described netflix/afk healer seems more deserving to get kicked out while they can get the job done just as well.
So let's shift the effort levels a bit and you're the healer now that's not willing to contribute damage, but still get the job done. The other player is now in your mindset that the healer deserves a kick for not putting in enough effort. So where are we now?

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Don't you think it's a little childish to be kicking someone over something as minor as not using offensive spells as a healer? They are not causing a wipe, they are not trolling the party, they are just not using offensive spells. If they're kicking someone over something that minor, maybe it's them who should be taking a look at themselves.

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It depends on the situation. Some people are able to tell the difference between people still learning and people refusing to contribute what they can because they don't want to. One is a fact that we all have to deal with; we all have to learn at some time or another. The other is a problem considering, once again, that this is a group based game. You don't have to contribute what you can if you don't want, but the group doesn't have to put up with it either.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

A SCH afking and letting the fairy do the healing is not the same thing as a person physically being there and doing the healing themselves. While one is something I 100% understand to be kicked on because they are not even there, they are just following someone letting the AI do the healing for them.

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And, because the fairy can solo heal the dungeon, the healing that the sch is doing while physically being there is completely meaningless. Unless, of course, they're having the tank pull multiple groups at once and their healing is needed in addition to the fairy's in order to keep the tank alive. But I don't believe in fairy tales.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Well I believe we found the root of the problem for the most part. People want everything to be fast, that will not always happen. And to the other person, you're contributing to your team if you're keeping them alive. Trying to connect a healer not dpsing to an ice mage, dragoons who only use their jumps, or ninja's who only throw daggers..basically DPS classes who are not doing as much damage as possible..that's illogical. They are DPS, they are supposed to be doing as much damage as they possibly can. Hence the term DPS or damage dealers.

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Nah, SE gave us 90 minutes to clear dungeons. Clearly they don't intend for dps classes to use all their abilities. :^)