People Enjoy hard Games

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

What in the name of the Twelve is a "turbo casual"?

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https://i.ibb.co/ryBLM1K/power-range...gers-turbo.gif
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Originally Posted by VelKallor

What in the name of the Twelve is a "turbo casual"?

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https://youtu.be/ZeWF5fd7JrA

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Originally Posted by Renalt

https://i.ibb.co/ryBLM1K/power-range...gers-turbo.gif
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This describes mainsub and the point I was originally making way too reliably for a dumb unrelated gif

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This describes mainsub and the point I was originally making way too reliably for a dumb unrelated gif

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how do you see anything it just directs me to paying for their subscription service LOL

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Do consider that the achievements only track people who have FINISHED the tier, and don't consider people who do a couple bosses and stop, or can't finish for one reason or another.

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Really?!?! So...what you are claiming is that to comprise of this "silent majority", 25% complete raid tiers and then the other 35% do only one, two, or three of the raids?
Do you honestly think anyone who has any measurement of intelligence is going to believe this?

BTW, if anyone believes this tripe from Rolder50, I have great news! I just bought the London Bridge...do you guys want to buy it from me? Really cheap and fast delivery to any smuck...I mean buyer who is interested!

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Really?!?! So...what you are claiming is that to comprise of this "silent majority", 25% complete raid tiers and then the other 35% do only one, two, or three of the raids?
Do you honestly think anyone who has any measurement of intelligence is going to believe this

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Yes because its true. Some people do some of it but never all. i did part of Ivalice, then came back later to do the rest as I didnt like it at first. Some do part of it and then say yeah I dont like this stuff the rest..or do a few farming for certain gear pieces and never bother after that.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Very quickly: See Pokemon and Mario Kart's numbers. People enjoy both hard and easy games.

I don't really care if XIV's MSQ remains as simple as it has been as of late. I'm not sure how many people were here for OG Steps of Faith, but people were locked out of Ishgard by a fight that nowadays may qualify as EX, and I'm not sure the MSQ should have stuff like that... I guess it's open for debate. What I want is just more midcore content, and maybe review the rewards for EX/Criterion/SVG/Ultimate.

Just my two cents.

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I was here and trust me, no one was locked out of finishing patch 2.5.
It just required a group of 8 people to actually coordinate and pay attention. It also just required people explaining what to do during that trial and people willing to read.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Really?!?! So...what you are claiming is that to comprise of this "silent majority", 25% complete raid tiers and then the other 35% do only one, two, or three of the raids?
Do you honestly think anyone who has any measurement of intelligence is going to believe this?

BTW, if anyone believes this tripe from Rolder50, I have great news! I just bought the London Bridge...do you guys want to buy it from me? Really cheap and fast delivery to any smuck...I mean buyer who is interested!

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Talk about being unnecessarily aggressive! The hallmark of a well adjusted individual with a good argument to be sure.

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I was here and trust me, no one was locked out of finishing patch 2.5.

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If they cant finish a scenario / instance that gates access to Ishgard, yes then they were locked out. Diadeem is in fact correct. Story content should present a challenge yes, but not to that degree.Difficulty should be balanced on type of content. The skill level needed to finish MSQ is not the same as harder content and should not be.

You will notice that 8 man content like Prae is now a 4 man and the difficulty level adjusted to match. Every person I have spoken to says the change has been an improvement.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

I was here and trust me, no one was locked out of finishing patch 2.5.
It just required a group of 8 people to actually coordinate and pay attention. It also just required people explaining what to do during that trial and people willing to read.

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People were definitely locked out. One of the biggest reasons was that at first there wasn't a respawn. You had to wait for Vishap to get all the way to the end to be able to retry. Couple that with the large number of mechanics not seen in anything in the MSQ up to that point and the damage sponges everything were, and you had a recipe for people bailing. It went in in 2.55 and it was nerfed by 2.57.

I'm wondering, if SE designed solo MSQ instances to be a challenge regularly but made it so you can immediately pick an easier option on your first try, would that not satisfy both the people who want a simpler MSQ experience and also the people who want a challenge from the MSQ?

Fun fact about Gameforums. Only around 10-15% of all players regulary using/visiting the Forum. For FFXIV i would guess its even less than 10%. 90% of these players never leave a comment,around 10% do leave a comment/reaction. In other words,this forum represents less than 1% of all players. ^^

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Really?!?! So...what you are claiming is that to comprise of this "silent majority", 25% complete raid tiers and then the other 35% do only one, two, or three of the raids?
Do you honestly think anyone who has any measurement of intelligence is going to believe this?

BTW, if anyone believes this tripe from Rolder50, I have great news! I just bought the London Bridge...do you guys want to buy it from me? Really cheap and fast delivery to any smuck...I mean buyer who is interested!

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I don't think you're really engaging in good faith attempts to understand what people are saying.

1) you're dealing with a minimum, and accounting for the fact that the first two floors are usually easier, I don't think it can be as easily dismissed as you're trying to claim
2) but over and above that, it's not really that relevant, because see below:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The biggest content people engage with outside of the core roulettes is Bozja (over 50% of people have step foot inside Bozja at one time or another), so yes the core of the playerbase lies in that “I don’t want to turn my brain off but extreme is a bit too complex to regularly do” which field content fills

Turbo casuals just seem to think it’s only people who do savage that want more content harder than normal raids and that all content should be savage level for some reason despite their being no justification for the existence of that mindset

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It's almost like you read the words 'harder content' and automatically assume it's savage (or I guess, ultimate) or bust. So your post wasn't the gotcha you thought it was. And for the record, I am in the category of people who fit what Supersnow describes. Games that are too easy are actively off-putting to me and I will just as soon go play something else. 14's base level of difficulty is so far away from anything challenging that it's nowhere near at risk of chasing off players just by offering a more even spread of difficulty options to cater to varying appetite levels in its playerbase, and I'd say that is true even within the MSQ... it's not like SE is incapable of figuring out how to fine-tune difficulty levels and segregate on this basis, if they put their mind to it. What pushes me away from savage is mainly the time investment/organisation it requires, but it doesn't mean I don't want content that puts my mind to use.

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Originally Posted by Silberzerox

Fun fact about Gameforums. Only around 10-15% of all players regulary using/visiting the Forum. For FFXIV i would guess its even less than 10%. 90% of these players never leave a comment,around 10% do leave a comment/reaction. In other words,this forum represents less than 1% of all players. ^^

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Fun fact: 99% of stats are made up, above included.

Not sure what the relevance of this is to anything, though.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm wondering, if SE designed solo MSQ instances to be a challenge regularly but made it so you can immediately pick an easier option on your first try, would that not satisfy both the people who want a simpler MSQ experience and also the people who want a challenge from the MSQ?

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It is already set that way. Fail it once and the option becomes available.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm wondering, if SE designed solo MSQ instances to be a challenge regularly but made it so you can immediately pick an easier option on your first try, would that not satisfy both the people who want a simpler MSQ experience and also the people who want a challenge from the MSQ?

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you should see the final fight with xeno then. they actually put an easy option in it

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

It is already set that way. Fail it once and the option becomes available.

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In other words, it isn't already set that way. You have to fail it once for the difficulty setting to pop up.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

People were definitely locked out. One of the biggest reasons was that at first there wasn't a respawn. You had to wait for Vishap to get all the way to the end to be able to retry. Couple that with the large number of mechanics not seen in anything in the MSQ up to that point and the damage sponges everything were, and you had a recipe for people bailing. It went in in 2.55 and it was nerfed by 2.57.

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It was nerfed relatively quickly, but not to the state of 'cleared well before the second wall' most players were familiar with. That came from ilvl maxing, job potency creeping and direct hit advent.

It ALWAYS allowed players to respawn at any point, though, individually, and included shortcuts the whole way.

The battle really hinged on the concept of at tank grouping enemies up beneath Vishap so cannoneers could maximize damage, clearing them and hurting the boss, and there was plenty of slack. After all, the fight expected you to land the first Dragonkiller, get surprised when she dodged the second, probably killing a bunch of players and wiping out a set of cannons early, and still finish it because of all the extra incidental damage the contraptions provided.

Didn't help that it's still was easy to mess up the cannons. Maybe if they worked more like the ones in RW instead of SV: hard that would have helped some. Still, preferred Vishap to Bismarck.

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Originally Posted by Post

Here's the thing though, Dun Scaith has teeth.

It's recoverable, but it has teeth.

Compare it to Nophica, who is basically the endboss for sirensong sea (except she hits the tank less hard) and Menphina who will actually aim her half room cleave at 0 players in a raid of goddamn 24.

There's too much difficulty and not allowing your support jobs to step up and save the run between so many body checks, and such tight mechanics that there's basically only one way to actually succeed something that appears complex, and then there's enough difficulty that players at least feel engaged by more than just the sound and graphic design. You know, like a game. Not a movie.

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The Diabolos fight is still the most chaotic normal alliance raid fight that we've gotten imo. At least 2nd phase where there's so much crap to watch out for and anyone hitting those dark spheres will most likely bounce to a player affecting them and create a string of oopsy daisies.

Its awesome

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

The Diabolos fight is still the most chaotic normal alliance raid fight that we've gotten imo. At least 2nd phase where there's so much crap to watch out for and anyone hitting those dark spheres will most likely bounce to a player affecting them and create a string of oopsy daisies.

Its awesome

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Once again field content sets the bar high for what content should be in this game

I’d also argue TA’s temperature mechanic killing you instantly for a failure and twice come ruin on DRN’s attacks alongside diablos are the perfect examples of that midcore difficulty we should be aiming for

Frankly, I'd be satisfied with some optional savage/ultimate-level solo challenges that reward gear appropriate for their difficulty. Savage-esque difficulty as a single player would come quite close to midcore since most of what makes savage challenging is convincing other people the fire they're standing in isn't a DPS increase.

I'm still pissed that we didn't get a Bozja duel level difficulty version of the capstone 6.0 duty.

What was all that developer practice even for?

Some people enjoy hard games, some enjoy easy games. I enjoy a little bit of both.

Here's a wild idea, why not incorporate various different content in each expansion with a range of different difficulties, so that every player is satisfied?

^once again that is exactly what we are asking for

There is an absolute gulf where the midcore content should be this expansion

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Originally Posted by Silberzerox

Fun fact about Gameforums. Only around 10-15% of all players regulary using/visiting the Forum. For FFXIV i would guess it’s even less than 10%. 90% of these players never leave a comment,around 10% do leave a comment/reaction. In other words,this forum represents less than 1% of all players. ^^

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But Silberzerox, did you know that these brave posters are the Gods’ chosen voice of the silent majority?

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Originally Posted by Post

It was nerfed relatively quickly, but not to the state of 'cleared well before the second wall' most players were familiar with. That came from ilvl maxing, job potency creeping and direct hit advent.

It ALWAYS allowed players to respawn at any point, though, individually, and included shortcuts the whole way.

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I meant in regards to a total party wipe, which was very easy to do before the changes.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Once again field content sets the bar high for what content should be in this game

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They're talking about the Dun Scaith Diabolos fight. That isn't field content. Even says "alliance raid" in the quote. I know you're all about field content but XIV had memorable fights before all that came out. And quite a few of them were much harder when they launched and have gotten easier over time with ilevel creep but still have mechanics like that one that can trip the raid up.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I meant in regards to a total party wipe, which was very easy to do before the changes.



They're talking about the Dun Scaith Diabolos fight. That isn't field content. Even says "alliance raid" in the quote. I know you're all about field content but XIV had memorable fights before all that came out. And quite a few of them were much harder when they launched and have gotten easier over time with ilevel creep but still have mechanics like that one that can trip the raid up.

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Oh that’s fair the use of second phase tripped me up because I forgot that diablos has 2 phases, I still think that the diablo armament is a better example of normal content difficulty but I’m willing to take the L on quoting a thing I didn’t read correctly

And yes I know what those fights were on launch, if you can remember the fact that I talk about field content a lot surely you can remember how I’m a legacy player, you don’t have to preach launch dun scaith difficulty to me

Ideally, the MSQ should progressively get harder the further into the game you are. The way it is now, it's the same as level 50 dungeons. which aren't a challenge by the time you unlock them, all the way to end game. Very little threat in any part of the MSQ outside of the odd duty where you are controlling a NPC for it, and even then not very hard.

Part of the problem is trying to make everything 100% access able to anyone, and everyone. Not everyone can do all activities they want to in real life without actually putting effort in, yet here we are not even needing to put in any effort for anything outside of savage/ultimates, and the odd extreme(admittedly I haven't been doing extremes for this expansion really...)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Once again field content sets the bar high for what content should be in this game

I’d also argue TA’s temperature mechanic killing you instantly for a failure and twice come ruin on DRN’s attacks alongside diablos are the perfect examples of that midcore difficulty we should be aiming for

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Dungeon bosses should be midcore. I gave an example with Mist Dragon at The Burn because it also had challenge mostly due to its punishing attacks.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I'm in this category. I don't have the time or energy to push the super difficult content like Ultimate, but I DO want some content that at least makes me think. Which FF14 is severely lacking in.

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This is how I feel. I'm past the point in my life where I have time to coordinate with other people and schedule my life around progging. Most content for a long-time player like me is only really challenging the first couple times doing it. After that because most of these encounters are memory-based, once you know the patterns it's very simplistic. So most players who plan on doing content more than once or twice, which most do because it takes more than 2 runs to finish gear, will find the game easy very early into each patch.

As a healer it's a bit sad how choreographed when I need to use heal OCDs. Just very simple and not super exciting, unless I get new/bad players which makes it more fun.

I enjoy chilling most of the times than struggling

Having recently unlocked the EW alliance raids, I'm honestly surprised how easy and undertuned they are. They're awesome raids visually and musically with a few neat mechanics, but they're so easy to face roll and they're so predictable.

More people die to the 2nd boss of the 1st Ivalice and almost everything in the Nier raids than both EW raids combined. In fact, I've seen more people die to the first boss of WoD than anything in the EW raids.

I really hope they add some more difficulty with the 3rd one.

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Originally Posted by OliverQ

Having recently unlocked the EW alliance raids, I'm honestly surprised how easy and undertuned they are. They're awesome raids visually and musically with a few neat mechanics, but they're so easy to face roll and they're so predictable.

More people die to the 2nd boss of the 1st Ivalice and almost everything in the Nier raids than both EW raids combined. In fact, I've seen more people die to the first boss of WoD than anything in the EW raids.

I really hope they add some more difficulty with the 3rd one.

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Don't get your hopes up. With how this dev team operates, it's only going to get easier.

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Originally Posted by OliverQ

Having recently unlocked the EW alliance raids, I'm honestly surprised how easy and undertuned they are. They're awesome raids visually and musically with a few neat mechanics, but they're so easy to face roll and they're so predictable.

More people die to the 2nd boss of the 1st Ivalice and almost everything in the Nier raids than both EW raids combined. In fact, I've seen more people die to the first boss of WoD than anything in the EW raids.

I really hope they add some more difficulty with the 3rd one.

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It will only be (somewhat) difficult in the first week or two. If they would reduce the ilvl cap, you would see more damage going out and more mechanics happening (see The Final Day). You can argue that Aglaia and Euphro are not hard, sure. But, anyone doing these raids today are not experiencing it the same as when they first released. Obviously, some of that is more people used to the mechanics. But a lot of it is just higher gear increasing your DPS and reducing the amount of damage you take. They don't need to make it min ilvl, just have it a tighter ilvl sync. A lot of content would be more challenging, if our gear didn't outstrip the content so much, so quickly.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

It will only be (somewhat) difficult in the first week or two. If they would reduce the ilvl cap, you would see more damage going out and more mechanics happening (see The Final Day). You can argue that Aglaia and Euphro are not hard, sure. But, anyone doing these raids today are not experiencing it the same as when they first released. Obviously, some of that is more people used to the mechanics. But a lot of it is just higher gear increasing your DPS and reducing the amount of damage you take. They don't need to make it min ilvl, just have it a tighter ilvl sync. A lot of content would be more challenging, if our gear didn't outstrip the content so much, so quickly.

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Was thinking the same thing. Most of the playerbase overgears and knows these raids like the back of their hands by now as current, or nearly current content. Unlocking them now means they are easier than ever, in regards to overgearing and people being well-practiced on current mechanics.

In regards to the 70 and 80's raids, I think party of why they are harder is because people rarely get them in roulettes, meaning they aren't practiced. I think I get the 80s ones like twice a year on my roulettes. Also people use them as another levelling roulette at those levels so people may be on jobs they aren't as good at / not as geared.

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Originally Posted by Post

I'm still pissed that we didn't get a Bozja duel level difficulty version of the capstone 6.0 duty.

What was all that developer practice even for?

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This gave me the thought of Ultimate/Unreal versions of solo duties. Optional, so people can still get through the MSQ, but tuned up for a higher challenge level.

Although, other than that one and the duel with Raubahn back in post-Heavensward, I'm blanking on what else to do with it. Ran'jit, maybe?

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Originally Posted by OliverQ

Having recently unlocked the EW alliance raids, I'm honestly surprised how easy and undertuned they are. They're awesome raids visually and musically with a few neat mechanics, but they're so easy to face roll and they're so predictable.

More people die to the 2nd boss of the 1st Ivalice and almost everything in the Nier raids than both EW raids combined. In fact, I've seen more people die to the first boss of WoD than anything in the EW raids.

I really hope they add some more difficulty with the 3rd one.

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Their not really undertuned as you are just late to the party. Most people have ran them to death and out gear them. Last time I was in the most current EW alliance(second one) the 2nd boss went down so fast made my first kill of them look slow. As for older raids people have a bad habit of afk running them or just not caring enough to pay attention.

While doing content later along will make it even easier, let's not pretend that AR2 was threatening even on release day. Ran it twice within the first couple hours of release for a grand total of one wipe.

(And even that was actually recoverable; the tanks just felt it'd be more fun starting it over as less a cluster, since of the 7 to die to back-to-back mistakes near the start, 5 were healers.)

The mechanics were more intuitively telegraphed and the damage less than in previous raids.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

You can argue that Aglaia and Euphro are not hard, sure. But, anyone doing these raids today are not experiencing it the same as when they first released.

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I did both the day of release and can say unequivocally that Euphrosene was a complete joke even on day one with everyone going in totally blind. Aglaia is a pushover as well but at least it had some mechanics that made you think "hmmm how does this work" for a second. Euph is like the dude responsible for implementing the mechanics put it off until the day before release and then just went "uhhhhh everything cleaves half the room! *send file*"

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While doing content later along will make it even easier, let's not pretend that AR2 was threatening even on release day. Ran it twice within the first couple hours of release for a grand total of one wipe.

(And even that was actually recoverable; the tanks just felt it'd be more fun starting it over as less a cluster, since of the 7 to die to back-to-back mistakes near the start, 5 were healers.)

The mechanics were more intuitively telegraphed and the damage less than in previous raids.

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But you still got A wipe ;)

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

But you still got A wipe ;)

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An intentional one, but yes. Which is more than any of my LS or FC mates saw at its release.