Been seeing a lot of doomsaying in forums/in-game lately

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Sounds to me like tanks need nerfs across the board tbh

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Their self healing absolutely does, the trinity damn near requires it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The devil is in the details.

If you were to make a post on how healer gameplay is generally unsatisfying, a lot of people will agree with you. That's the low hanging fruit. Nobody is going to 'defend' against that statement. The real prize is higher up: you'll have a lot harder time getting a complete consensus on what the central problem is, be it:
1) a lackluster offensive toolkit
2) an overabundance of healing and defensive cooldowns between tanks and healers
3) lack of incoming damage/variability in fight design
4) reduced opportunities to carry (i.e. raidwipe potential) or
5) relatively homogenous design and gameplay (why is every healer a caster?),
let alone proposed solutions. And that's really the level of detail that you need to engage at bare minimum.

What I find truly frightening is the fact that 'The idea that we need to DPS must go' is actually still a topic on the healer forum frontpage in May 2022. We occasionally used to see similar threads about 'the dangers of DPS tanking' at the absolute latest up until mid-Heavensward, circa 2016 or so, before the tanking community unilaterally reached consensus on it and laughed any further 'debate' on the subject off the forums. If we can't even agree on what the core design goals and direction should be from the playerbase, how does anyone find a solution? So things remain the same.

I think that there's a lot of passion, but that's not enough on its own. You need someone who knows how to actually write. That passion needs to be supported by well structured and thought-out post(s) that people can rally and formulate a consensus behind. And while many people want their voices to be heard and be the one to make that golden thread that builds the necessary momentum for change, not everyone is equally able to express themselves with clarity, so you get a mire of duplicate complaint threads that don't provide anything besides raw emotion.

There are some very articulate regulars in the healer forums (at least one of whom is lurking in here). I have no personal stake in the issue myself (healer is by far my least played role in this game, largely because I dislike MMO healing's pace in general and find healing truly shines in a faster, more reactive PvP environment), but I'd really be interested to see one of them pick up their keyboard and write a unifying thread on the topic and get it cross-posted on to somewhere like /r/ffxivdiscussion or the main subreddit. Not just for the upvotes, but to build an actual conversation on the subject. If we managed to get Living Dead changed using this approach, I'm pretty sure anything is possible. I'd offer to do it for you, except it's not my place nor my battle to fight.

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Going a little meta, I think there's a pretty big set of issues that prevents the healer forums from coming to a consensus on what needs to change with the role.
1) There are so many problems with how healers are designed that coming up with a succinct list is...rough.
2) FFXIV pitches itself as a trinity game, but its hard drive toward being solo-friendly is a design choice that consequentially makes the trinity less coherent; support roles feel it most keenly. This doesn't mean that you -can't- have more support focused jobs, but FFXIV's healers are designed in a way that's totally tone-deaf to this, and pretends as if a straight healbomber makes sense in this game.
3) Healing jobs have a divide in their fanbase that you just don't see much in tanks, and especially not DPS.

What makes playing a DPS fun is pretty well-known, easy to understand, and straightforward. You want to make the enemy explode. Or bleed. Or punch them in the face. Whatever route to that same end gets you going. Tanks might want to feel like the party meat shield, but there's still always a bit of that sword-wielding knight fantasy somewhere in there. You're still beating up the enemy. Healers, as a role, leave room for Sylphie. Someone who detests combat, and "just wants to heal". That's....not really how this game works, but you're always going to have a number of them screaming that FFXIV's healers are going in the "correct" direction, sense be damned.

Then you have what I, and several other healers who lurk the forums, see as our class fantasy. We want to hold the party together, yes. I want to feel like a powerful combat medic. Rescuing someone with a flick of my wrist, then smacking someone with my staff, debuffing, healing the tank, holy blasting, keeping a bunch of tasks in the air at the same time while looking like I haven't broken a sweat as far as the rest of the party is concerned. Struggle sessions do happen, and they're also fun, but the end goal is getting really good at managing stressful, complex situations while multitasking. Other players may define their terms differently, but I think a LOT of healer mains are chasing the gameplay I described. And every single element of that gameplay is utter anathema to FFXIV's healing direction for the last six years.

This leads to
4) FFXIV's healer jobs are designed by people who main DPS jobs.

The Sylphie vision of healer design is the direct healer-style copy of how DPS jobs work. They want to damage more? You want to heal more! Easy peasy. Makes perfect sense.
The combat medic vision of healer design is the inverse of how DPS jobs work. Rationing your abilities, stretching your cooldowns, and seeing just how close to the line you can get things and do as little as possible before going back on the offensive is a different world from how DPS jobs work. And it's really hard to get a lot of people who don't give a crap about how healer mains find their fun to really grok this. The dev team and Yoshi have certainly displayed none of that sort of understanding.

Honestly I think one of the biggest roadblocks to change here is that the dev team just isn't that interested in healers or how they play. All it takes is one Sylphie telling them that the grand vision of Cure spamming is "fun", and everything else the healer forums say is just babbling to them. What's this essay about how healer engagement is fundamentally different from DPS engagement? Get outta here, HeALeRs ShoULD HeAL OnlY, that's how they have fun because it makes sense to me and someone told me it's fun.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Take your emotions out on something else. You're getting upset because I simply have a different viewpoint. Being passionate is fine but you need to practice some restraint n poise seriously. Hop into a healer thread with your grievances as that'll be a much more suitable place for issues with said role. Pop off at the people there and let others who still enjoy the role as is do as such.

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So you have no actual objection to the content, just a vague need to inform me that you care less than I do about something and that makes you a superior, more stable person. Snore, continue enjoying things with less engagement than free Korean MMOs to your heart's content. I can't stop you. But I'll continue opposing this garbage design.

Astounds me that people are bothered by dissatisfaction from others than the game itself, bothers me also that without this need of a echo chamber, all your validation that the game your playing is good is lost

Probably why people hate others who complain. Your ruining their perception

Maybe their self healing wouldn't be such an issue if tank damage wasn't so insignificant anymore.

Remember when bosses would auto attack constantly for upwards of a 3rd of the tanks HP bar?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Maybe their self healing wouldn't be such an issue if tank damage wasn't so insignificant anymore.

Remember when bosses would auto attack constantly for upwards of a 3rd of the tanks HP bar?

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Or when tanks were more likely to get 1 shot by tank buster attacks if they didn't use a mitigation tool.

One thing you also don't see as much anymore are normal enemies that will target other party members with special attacks while still being focused on the tank like the gargoyle enemies randomly throwing swords at other ppl.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Astounds me that people are bothered by dissatisfaction from others than the game itself, bothers me also that without this need of a echo chamber, all your validation that the game your playing is good is lost

Probably why people hate others who complain. Your ruining their perception

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Astounds me that people are still bothered by a difference in opinion on the internet.

tbf the majority of healers that aren't sylphies have a pretty good idea of what they want.

-More downtime buttons
-More incoming damage so they aren't redundant in the party
-Return of job identity and unique playstyles (elements and some raid utility/highest pdps on whm, cards/time/noct sect on astro, selene/dots/shadowflare)
-Better treatment by devs and players

For more detail, this thread

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues

This forum is always like this. According to people here, the game died like... I don't know, a million of times already. Yet the amount of players don't stop increase. I won't pay too much attention to the continuously complaints here. the game has good things and bad things, but the people complaining about the bad things are too loud.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

So you have no actual objection to the content, just a vague need to inform me that you care less than I do about something and that makes you a superior, more stable person. Snore, continue enjoying things with less engagement than free Korean MMOs to your heart's content. I can't stop you. But I'll continue opposing this garbage design.

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It's odd you folks keep on this "superior" angle. More stable? I'm not the one here upset and raging out at folks simply because they like something I don't.
Again difference is I'm not going to crap on others for liking what they do. Oppose the design, just don't attack others for liking/being content with said design n you won't have issues.

I've said it before n I'll say it again, the devs aren't going to listen to feedback if its just constant attacks n bickering. Folks have to chill out

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Like this person said….if for healing to be engaging you need players to be playing badly and taking vuln stacks, there is a problem. Look at EW dungeons, where in every single pull i only need to use the same 2 ogcd’s on sage and that’s enough for the entire pull.The rest of the time i’m spamming my 1 dps button.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

You're misinterpreting what is being said by healer mains. We're saying that we should not have to rely on having a party of players who are consistently failing mechanics/dying a lot for us to have engagement or fun on our jobs. We can't make solo trust NPCs fail mechanics, nor can we make other players do so. When we have runs that go completely normal and people are performing normally, we are left to do nothing but spam 1 button for 80%-90% of our casts while we occasionally throw out an oGCD heal. It's boring and it's not fun, and this problem is exacerbated the more you play healer and the better you get at it. When things are going good, our downtime isn't engaging or fun in the slightest.

No offense, but this is a difference in skill and experience. You find it engaging and fun, but from what I've been able to tell, you are not a healer main and likely casually play healers when you aren't playing your main jobs. But for those of us who main healers and have sunk a lot of time into the role, we just want to be able to enjoy our role the same way DPS and Tanks can enjoy their jobs in all content.

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Well I’ll let you know if that happens because from my observation I have a better chance of obtaining a shiny Pokemon in the og Gen 1 than being bored as a healer. Even when that does happen, it’s rare enough to be a forgettable issue. I’m more than aware how much this will upset people, but that’s what’s been happening on a majority of my time as healer.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Well I’ll let you know if that happens because from my observation I have a better chance of obtaining a shiny Pokemon in the og Gen 1 than being bored as a healer. Even when that does happen, it’s rare enough to be a forgettable issue. I’m more than aware how much this will upset people, but that’s what’s been happening on a majority of my time as healer.

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I'm not really sure why you are insisting that the view that leveling dungeons are entertaining will upset anyone? It sounds like you're ignoring the point they are trying to make or are ignoring how things change once you hit the level cap and people start getting gear.

Here's a convenient example of a Byregot kill as WHM

That kill took 4:35, that's 110 GCDs.

84 of those GCDs I pressed the exact same button with dot refreshes for a further 9 and 3 Miserys taking us to a total of 96 out of 110 GCDs spent entirely DPSing.

Ok cool, that's 14 GCDs I spent healing right? Weeellllll, I did a total of 12 Lily heals, 6 of which were just Raptures to prevent me overcapping Lilies or movement (82% overheal there) and 6 were Solaces, 2 of which were actually for a DPS that took a vulnerability stack, 4 of which were simply me burning more Lilies (76% overheal).

2 GCDs are unaccounted for. What a slacker.

Meanwhile I pressed Assize on cooldown (6 casts), hit tetra/benison twice and lilybell/aquaveil once.

Did I chad my co healer or the raid as a whole? 76% overheal says no I probably didn't.

Again, don't take this as me trying to dismiss your point because I'm not. Pre Endgame dungeons can be fantastic, stuff like Bardams is legitimately the most fun you'll have outside of hardcore raid progression as a healer IMHO. Enjoy it as it's a genuine highlight of the game. Once you hit Expert/24 man and stick on the ilvl 580+ gear the challenge literally evaporates.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Or when tanks were more likely to get 1 shot by tank buster attacks if they didn't use a mitigation tool.

One thing you also don't see as much anymore are normal enemies that will target other party members with special attacks while still being focused on the tank like the gargoyle enemies randomly throwing swords at other ppl.

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They need a return of this in a lesser form for dungeons. Maybe more partywide damage, special random stuff, interactive stuff...remember WP Hard Mode's banner boss? You have to take the banner that gives damage up to prevent the boss from hitting a lot harder (he already hits hard), and you have to take the one that gives toad to cancel it on yourself when he gives it. But with the banners completely randomized, somebody's getting heavy'd or fire resistance down most likely during that. It's not a cakewalk fight for healing due to all that randomness (and our restricted kits there), and something I wish we'd see more of. Hell, maybe make a new status effect that prevents oGCD use that enemies can put on the healers. Basically force healers into positions where they have to mix up how they heal.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They need a return of this in a lesser form for dungeons. Maybe more partywide damage, special random stuff, interactive stuff...remember WP Hard Mode's banner boss? You have to take the banner that gives damage up to prevent the boss from hitting a lot harder (he already hits hard), and you have to take the one that gives toad to cancel it on yourself when he gives it. But with the banners completely randomized, somebody's getting heavy'd or fire resistance down most likely during that. It's not a cakewalk fight for healing due to all that randomness (and our restricted kits there), and something I wish we'd see more of. Hell, maybe make a new status effect that prevents oGCD use that enemies can put on the healers. Basically force healers into positions where they have to mix up how they heal.

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Honestly stuff like this should be in the criterion dungeons coming up. There's alot of potential in that mode

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They need a return of this in a lesser form for dungeons. Maybe more partywide damage, special random stuff, interactive stuff...remember WP Hard Mode's banner boss? You have to take the banner that gives damage up to prevent the boss from hitting a lot harder (he already hits hard), and you have to take the one that gives toad to cancel it on yourself when he gives it. But with the banners completely randomized, somebody's getting heavy'd or fire resistance down most likely during that. It's not a cakewalk fight for healing due to all that randomness (and our restricted kits there), and something I wish we'd see more of. Hell, maybe make a new status effect that prevents oGCD use that enemies can put on the healers. Basically force healers into positions where they have to mix up how they heal.

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The banners weren't randomized entirely they were color coordinated. The first wave (which WAS random) everyone popped a banner to figure out which one was the Damage up and then from then on you ignored all of them except that single one.