Remove Gender-Lock From Gear / Glamour Please

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Dont even get me started on healer glams. It's become very obvious that they design healer gear mainly with only females in mind, and then just barely slightly alter it for the men.

https://i.imgur.com/ysjKuVq.jpg?1 Heres an example. We can almost never get any kind of masculine healer gear whatsoever and it sucks. There just seems to be way more work put in for one side than the other, and removing genderlock would only worsen this ordeal.

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Worse yet, they inflicted that on striking sets as well, rip.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Doesn’t matter whether it’s “extreme”, it’s there and in the game and i gave other examples previously. Literally doesn’t change the weight of what i said and it’s a known thing.

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We've been through this before. There are a number of healer outfits that are neutral-to-masculine. There is not "nothing", and showing one example of a feminine outfit does not prove that there is nothing.

I made a long list before of things that I thought looked very good on male healer and, if I remember right, you dismissed it because the outfits could be worn by women too. That's not the same thing as the outfits not being there and available for men.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Worse yet, they inflicted that on striking sets as well, rip.

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For a female-targeted set, it is nice to get those sort of outfits on classes other than mages for once.

Though honestly, the dresses don't even look that nice on female characters. They added the bulky chestpiece with the feathers and it makes the whole shape of it look strange and unflattering, at least in my opinion.

I've used all the other pieces of the set in one glamour or another, but I don't find the dress useful.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

We've been through this before. There are a number of healer outfits that are neutral-to-masculine. There is not "nothing", and showing one example of a feminine outfit does not prove that there is nothing.

I made a long list before of things that I thought looked very good on male healer and, if I remember right, you dismissed it because the outfits could be worn by women too. That's not the same thing as the outfits not being there and available for men.

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Yes and like i told you before, nothing personal but i’d rather not someone who mains a female character try to tell me what’s rightfully masculine. That long list you gave, had numerous feminine looking ones as well. So please don’t try and tell me that when the ratio of masculine outfits to feminine outfits is horribly skewed. The nier raids attested to that. Recent hairstyles have attested to that. Hell, every single healer mascot for the game is female. That should say enough.Besides this thread is about removing genderlocks. Im giving rightful reasons why it shouldnt be unlocked as weve seen this expansion what kind of "un-genderlocked" gear we get. ITs mostly feminine.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes and like i told you before, nothing personal but i’d rather not someone who mains a female character try to tell me what’s rightfully masculine. That long list you gave, had numerous feminine looking ones as well.

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I "main" a female character but I play and glamour both genders pretty equally.

And yes, the list had both feminine and masculine glamours on it, because I listed everything instead of picking and choosing.

We got the frilly Edengate gown but we also got things like the Bozja set.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I "main" a female character but I play and glamour both genders pretty equally.

And yes, the list had both feminine and masculine glamours on it, because I listed everything instead of picking and choosing.

We got the frilly Edengate gown but we also got things like the Bozja set.

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Yes and most of the ones you listed were in fact, mainly feminine. It’s the overall state of things. Between the hair,the purely feminine outfits, etc. Where are the purely masculine outfits then hm? Don’t really see them much i mean hell, even mogstation has more feminine exclusive stuff. Yshtola’s ShB outfit, Ryne’s outfit. When was the last time we got a male npc outfit outside of Alphinaud’s? Hien’s? Lmao

Personally, as a gay guy, I'd like to see more focus on conventionally attractive aesthetics. So, yes, more traditionally masculine glamour and hairstyles for male characters would be very much appreciated.

I haven't seen much 'crying' from those of us who enjoy masculine aesthetics. Though I think it's fascinating how often it is memory holed that the development team were accused of being 'bigots' and other horrid things back when the gender locks were tighter.

Furthermore, a common point of concern during the shift in development in regards to hairstyles was that the removal of the gender lock would result in the base designs leaning towards feminine and androgynous - which is exactly what happened.

I'm not surprised to see gaslighting at play from some of the usual suspects, however - it is what it is, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

*snip*

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Very convincing.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes and like i told you before, nothing personal but i’d rather not someone who mains a female character try to tell me what’s rightfully masculine. That long list you gave, had numerous feminine looking ones as well. So please don’t try and tell me that when the ratio of masculine outfits to feminine outfits is horribly skewed. The nier raids attested to that. Recent hairstyles have attested to that. Hell, every single healer mascot for the game is female. That should say enough.Besides this thread is about removing genderlocks. Im giving rightful reasons why it shouldnt be unlocked as weve seen this expansion what kind of "un-genderlocked" gear we get. ITs mostly feminine.

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I only play female characters in this game, but I think I can have a valid opinion on the sets regardless. For that matter, aren't all the tank mascots males?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Personally, as a gay guy, I'd like to see more focus on conventionally attractive aesthetics. So, yes, more traditionally masculine glamour and hairstyles for male characters would be very much appreciated.

I haven't seen much 'crying' from those of us who enjoy masculine aesthetics. Though I think it's fascinating how often it is memory holed that the development team were accused of being 'bigots' and other horrid things back when the gender locks were tighter.

Furthermore, a common point of concern during the shift in development in regards to hairstyles was that the removal of the gender lock would result in the base designs leaning towards feminine and androgynous - which is exactly what happened.

I'm not surprised to see gaslighting at play from some of the usual suspects, however - it is what it is, I suppose.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v4p...l=SauceyNoodle

It will happen one of these days!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I only play female characters in this game, but I think I can have a valid opinion on the sets regardless. For that matter, aren't all the tank mascots males?

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You’re allowed to have an opinion, but trying to tell people who actually play male characters they’re getting enough masculine gear and they don’t need anymore is a bit reaching. Especially when again, it’s clear that female characters get pandered to time and time again and males are left in the dust constantly. Also yes, all the tanks mascots are males. So i guess only men can be tanks and only women can be healers. Interesting mindset that SE has ;p

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So i guess only men can be tanks and only women can be healers. Interesting mindset that SE has ;p

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Which is why all three of our healer trusts are men...?

Not just gender lock, but race lock too. I want to wear that Male Viera harness.

Still waiting on being able to wear maid clothing with my male Hrothgar character. =(

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Which is why all three of our healer trusts are men...?

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And both of our tank trusts are still…you guessed it! Males!

Of course, to the thread, a big yes. More amazing suits for women, a whole bunch of cute accessories, shoes, and skirts for men, are all welcome.

This narrative this thread has shifted towards of "male characters don't have enough masculine-looking gear" is troublesome. I see dissatisfaction with the aesthetics of male character armour in general or lack of options, and to that, I completely agree. That said, I think it is a misdirection to hold it against people wanting more armour for all characters of all genders. As someone who plays a male character I want more of the female stuff to be equippable, but I also want more new gear for male characters that is conventionally masculine and flattering. I think the resources should go into both liberating old gear, as well as making sure gear sets going forward help to round out the available options. As long as the pipeline for new gear remains steady they don't need to be mutually-exclusive. Because we have new sets for dungeons, tomestones, etc., the developer always has another chance to do things right.

The people that deserve no audience are the people who don't want to see it at all. I mean, there's all kinds of things I don't like in this game like glowing mounts, 2b leggings, 90% of the cats people design, but you know? I don't complain. That's their character, not mine, and there is way, way, way worse things people can wear. You have to deal with the fact there's already some nice suits for women, skirts and dresses for men in the game already, so the moogle is out of the bag and your fragile ideals are already transgressed. I hope the developer keeps it coming.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Of course, to the thread, a big yes. More amazing suits for women, a whole bunch of cute accessories, shoes, and skirts for men, are all welcome.

This narrative this thread has shifted towards of "male characters don't have enough masculine-looking gear" is troublesome. I see dissatisfaction with the aesthetics of male character armour in general or lack of options, and to that, I completely agree. That said, I think it is a misdirection to hold it against people wanting more armour for all characters of all genders. As someone who plays a male character I want more of the female stuff to be equippable, but I also want more new gear for male characters that is conventionally masculine and flattering. I think the resources should go into both liberating old gear, as well as making sure gear sets going forward help to round out the available options. As long as the pipeline for new gear remains steady they don't need to be mutually-exclusive. Because we have new sets for dungeons, tomestones, etc., the developer always has another chance to do things right.

The people that deserve no audience are the people who don't want to see it at all. I mean, there's all kinds of things I don't like in this game like glowing mounts, 2b leggings, 90% of the cats people design, but you know? I don't complain. There's way worse things people can stride, and even if that were the case, that's their character. There's already some nice suits for women, skirts and dresses for men, and the moogle is out of the bag and you have to confront it, and the developer should keep 'em coming.

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In a perfect world everyone could have what they want, which includes no gender locks etc. The problem is, the world isn’t perfect and all of those things cost resources. The 14 team is already scrapped for resources as it is, so everything always comes at the cost of something else. In this case, taking away gender locks of older gear or creating new gear without gender locks takes resources and means less time spent on overall glams. My main problem with the no genderlock thing is like i stated before, typically when things like this are implemented, the look almost inherently leans towards feminine and androgynous looks, never masculine. A key example of this are the recent hairstyles implemented. Like as it is, trying to get masculine gear or male gear is difficult. Having the devs use up resources and time just to take away genderlocks means less attention on male/masculine glams, which we already get very little of.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

In a perfect world everyone could have what they want, which includes no gender locks etc. The problem is, the world isn’t perfect and all of those things cost resources. The 14 team is already scrapped for resources as it is, so everything always comes at the cost of something else. In this case, taking away gender locks of older gear or creating new gear without gender locks takes resources and means less time spent on overall glams. My main problem with the no genderlock thing is like i stated before, typically when things like this are implemented, the look almost inherently leans towards feminine and androgynous looks, never masculine. A key example of this are the recent hairstyles implemented. Like as it is, trying to get masculine gear or male gear is difficult. Having the devs use up resources and time just to take away genderlocks means less attention on male/masculine glams, which we already get very little of.

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I get that. I see that, though my point stands.

No matter what, on release of a new expansion we will get 2-3 new levelling dungeon sets with new models, 1 new tomestone set, etc. at launch, and here or there over patches. They will reuse like a set or two for levelling dungeons, but in general, no matter what, the developer has many chances to do it right, because they will and should prioritize making new gear. They have many opportunities to remedy this overtime as this problem is not solved retroactively. But, at the same time, no matter what, they will still be producing gear for everyone else, and if they want to do that, they have a very cost-efficient way of doing so.

Inversely, while freeing up gear isn't solving this problem, people who like this kind of gear for female or male characters, are getting a whole bunch of great stuff freed up that takes up significantly less resources to produce. Of course meshes and all that are not as easy as just ticking boxes, but no matter what the developer wants to still make great gear available for players of all genders, and they will have to work on this goal regardless of their pipeline decisions for new progression gear, map dungeon material gear, that in no way being compromised because of the formulaic nature of the game. Especially if it's still adding stuff that people want and like, and especially if they have a CHEAP way to make a whole lot of stuff available.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

so the moogle is out of the bag and your fragile ideals are already transgressed. I hope the developer keeps it coming.

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That's this kind of comment that does nothing but improve any ressentful feelings against it, poor argument and a weak attack to "the mean bad ppl that doesn't think like me".
Maybe one day you'll learn that tolerance goes both way not only what you and only you do believe is right.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re allowed to have an opinion, but trying to tell people who actually play male characters they’re getting enough masculine gear and they don’t need anymore is a bit reaching. Especially when again, it’s clear that female characters get pandered to time and time again and males are left in the dust constantly. Also yes, all the tanks mascots are males. So i guess only men can be tanks and only women can be healers. Interesting mindset that SE has ;p

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Fortunately, I don't like most of the gear and agree that much of it is too feminine on males (or the designs just plain don't look good to me). :p Though, I just don't necessarily think it's because gear was designed with the female in mind, but more they have a specific theme going on. They are also a Japanese company, so their designs aren't generally going to be the classic western fantasy look. I know they can design cool looking gear though, since the PvP ranked rewards usually look so cool, so it's odd that stuff like that is near impossible to get, with little equally as cool available by other means.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Rathalos set makes sense because it's not really theirs to modify as they see fit.

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It looks nothing like the original Monster Hunter set, though.

I keep seeing hairstyles brought up, and this is a genuine question but... Haven't most of the ones added for the last like, freaking forever been winners/runners up from that contest they had a few years ago? I don't know how many have actually even been entirely designed by SE. I also don't remember there being a ton of masculine styles among the winners, so I mean...

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I keep seeing hairstyles brought up, and this is a genuine question but... Haven't most of the ones added for the last like, freaking forever been winners/runners up from that contest they had a few years ago? I don't know how many have actually even been entirely designed by SE. I also don't remember there being a ton of masculine styles among the winners, so I mean...

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Well that’s the problem lol. SE leaves it up to the community to come up with hairstyles and since a lot of the community plays female characters, there’s obvious bias towards those kinds. Instead of SE themselves actually designing the hairstyles so it’s a fair balance between the two genders, we instead get more androgynous and feminine leaning hairstyles. ShB as a whole has been a pretty big disappointment for male glams between the nier raid coffer favoritism,the hairstyles, and nothing really changing with the healer gear problem.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well that’s the problem lol. SE leaves it up to the community to come up with hairstyles and since a lot of the community plays female characters, there’s obvious bias towards those kinds. Instead of SE themselves actually designing the hairstyles so it’s a fair balance between the two genders, we instead get more androgynous and feminine leaning hairstyles. ShB as a whole has been a pretty big disappointment for male glams between the nier raid coffer favoritism,the hairstyles, and nothing really changing with the healer gear problem.

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That is, unfortunately, pretty typical to MMOs as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I keep seeing hairstyles brought up, and this is a genuine question but... Haven't most of the ones added for the last like, freaking forever been winners/runners up from that contest they had a few years ago? I don't know how many have actually even been entirely designed by SE. I also don't remember there being a ton of masculine styles among the winners, so I mean...

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Most of the recent ones have been from the contests, and the bias is overstated.

To my count, our "recent" hairstyles (since 5.0) have been:

- Shadowbringers trailer WoL (masculine and free to use)
- Great Lengths (neutral long style)
- Modern Legend (male contest runner-up; boyish)
- Wind Caller (masculine)
- Controlled Chaos (female contest runner-up)
- Saintly Style (male contest runner-up; boyish)
- Early to Rise (female contest runner-up)
- Both Ways (female contest shortlist)
- character hairstyles: Alphinaud, 2B and 9S

The original shortlist voting threads for the hairstyle contests are here:
Male hairstyles
Female hairstyles

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well that’s the problem lol. SE leaves it up to the community to come up with hairstyles and since a lot of the community plays female characters, there’s obvious bias towards those kinds.

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Are you trying to suggest that because more people play female characters, they submitted the hairstyles they wanted on their female characters to the male hairstyle competition?

I'm not sure hairstyles were even unisex at that point. The overall winner (the "Adventure" style from the Gold Saucer) is one item with the separate winners of the male and female contests applied according to character gender.

Whether it's to your taste or not, the styles that fans wanted and submitted to the contest for male characters ARE often "unisex" things that could look good on female characters as well. But it's what people submitted to a contest asking, specifically, for hairstyles to be used on male characters.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Most of the recent ones have been from the contests, and the bias is overstated.

To my count, our "recent" hairstyles (since 5.0) have been:

- Shadowbringers trailer WoL (masculine and free to use)
- Great Lengths (neutral long style)
- Modern Legend (male contest runner-up; boyish)
- Wind Caller (masculine)
- Controlled Chaos (female contest runner-up)
- Saintly Style (male contest runner-up; boyish)
- Early to Rise (female contest runner-up)
- Both Ways (female contest shortlist)
- character hairstyles: Alphinaud, 2B and 9S

The original shortlist voting threads for the hairstyle contests are here:
Male hairstyles
Female hairstyles
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Hmm fair, been a while since I looked at the thread and I mostly voted on the female styles anyway :p

At any rate my point was, I keep seeing hairstyles brought up as an example of why removing gender locks = everything will be more unisex/female leaning, but that example just. Doesn't follow because those hairstyles were pulled from a pool of contest winners and designed by players. As far as I'm aware it wasn't like SE decided hey, we're gonna stop gender limiting hair so now everything has to look more gender neutral. Like, this is all speculation, but it seems more likely that it was like "hey, designing hairstyles takes up resources so let's let the players design a bunch and then trickle out the ones they seem to like the most over the next however many years."

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Originally Posted by Avidria

As far as I'm aware it wasn't like SE decided hey, we're gonna stop gender limiting hair so now everything has to look more gender neutral. Like, this is all speculation, but it seems more likely that it was like "hey, designing hairstyles takes up resources so let's let the players design a bunch and then trickle out the ones they seem to like the most over the next however many years."

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Prettymuch. Though I think they did go through a phase of thinking like that once they started making hairstyles unisex – if you look in the character creator, there's a period when they first went to unisex hairstyles with a lot of short choppy styles and only a few that seem aimed at one gender or the other.

Now I think they are coming around to putting a mix of hairstyles that are "gendered" but still made available to anyone who wants to use them, and because fashion is a funny thing where women can wear masculine things but men can't wear feminine things, it can seem more biased than it is.

Plus the definition of what defines a hairstyle as men's rather than neutral is a variable thing from person to person. But if you look at the contest entries as examples then there is a definite pattern of the men's styles being potentially neutral and the women's styles being "fancy updos" that men wouldn't use. There are exceptions, of course, but that's the overall trend.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

No thanks. There are minors playing this game as well and some of more recent ones put it on mature perversion category already.

(not saying that the is anything wrong with the ladies wearing those pants)

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If you're that self conscious and insecure that you can't handle a child seeing a woman in pants or a man in a skirt; then that's a you problem, not an everyone else problem.

You definitely need to rethink your priorities. You clearly have a lot of growing up to do.

I approve of removing genderlock so I can rock that sexy Aymeric trenchcoat as Thighlander.

Should make everything dyeable too.

no thanks. keep the genderlock

I wholeheartedly agree. Players should be able to be who they want to, and dress how they want to.

Meoni got to interview Yoshi P and had someone else there too ( no clue who ) who asked about this.
And Yoshi P basically stated the obvious, the devs aren't against it and would like to do it but they have limited resources and things need to be redone to fit the models and it's basically not worth it to please a minority even if they'd want to.

There's some cases people could argue that it'd be a lot easier or could already be done but I dunno I am not going to pretend to know the exact details as to what'd go into it.
It's easy to speculate but might not be so easy in practice.

But we seriously don't need a billion new threads about this every week.
The devs are aware...
It's just not a priority and I don't think that it should be.
Saying that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want it to all be unlocked, but you kinda need to look at it from the pov of the whole and trying to please as many people as possible with limited resources.
Everything you do means that you're not doing something else as a dev.

I know this might upset some people, but at the same time in most cases you already have very similar gear to the male equivelant on female characters ( especially leg pieces, 99.9% of leg pieces are pants in different colors.... ) and the amount of people playing male characters that would unironically wear a dress or a skirt are a VERY small group.
Considering how extremely rare skirts and shorts are I don't sympathize much with people who get upset when female characters get it because again... They're extremely rare do you really need every single leg piece in the entire game to be pants?
But I do sympathize a bit more with the latter because male characters really do have more limited fashion.

Ultimately they're trying to appeal to different fantasies and preferences, masculine and feminine.
And they're going to align with the typical sex.
The reason why we have gendered gear in the game is precisely because the devs do want to offer options, but nothing is perfect.

I do think that when we're talking about mogstation gear tho it's a bit different because we're paying extra for it, I'd also say the same about event gear.


Edit: Like again when I am reading the earlier posts again.

'' I wish female characters could wear pants ''.


............... What game are you playing?
Some of y'all act as if just because one leg piece every now and again isn't pants it somehow means that you have no options.
Just what.

I get that sometimes you might prefer the other version, but not every single gear piece in the whole game needs to fit your tastes either.
And you do have other options you can replace it with and barely notice a difference if at all.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Meoni got to interview Yoshi P and had someone else there too ( no clue who ) who asked about this.
And Yoshi P basically stated the obvious, the devs aren't against it and would like to do it but they have limited resources and things need to be redone to fit the models and it's basically not worth it to please a minority even if they'd want to.

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Yet they turn around and proceed to make two completely different looking outfits tied to the same armor... It does make their response seem a bit contradictory.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Yet they turn around and proceed to make two completely different looking outfits tied to the same armor... It does make their response seem a bit contradictory.

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Would you prefer less variation and everyone gets the one same look then?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Would you prefer less variation and everyone gets the one same look then?

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I would prefer to wear pants, when the game hands me a pair of pants.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

I would prefer to wear pants, when the game hands me a pair of pants.

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That is not what I asked. In response to the original post I quoted: They are using their resources to make more variations of gear, rather than unisex pieces. This isn't a perfect world where everyone can get everything they want. They can't just snap their fingers and boom, the gender locks are removed! The result of fitting gear to both genders requires resources, and time. People can pat themselves on the back all they want, about how great it is for a male character to wear a dress, but we need to be real here.

I suppose if they were to make more unisex pieces, female characters would have more pants. Unless we want to make the healer robe or skirts complaint a wider issue, but then what about the players who actually want to wear dresses or skirts?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I approve of removing genderlock so I can rock that sexy Aymeric trenchcoat as Thighlander.

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*slams "Like" button faster than Barry Allen or Wally West could at their best*

While on the topic, I would also like the option to use the Valentione's vest the men got a couple of years ago, as opposed to the frilly dress the event offered women. Nothing against frilly dresses, it's just not my aesthetic.

But, I mean... *gestures emphatically towards forum signature* ...my views on this are not exactly a mystery to anyone who's interacted with me here. At all. Ever.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

I would prefer to wear pants, when the game hands me a pair of pants.

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*hits "Like" with dizzying speed once again*

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I suppose if they were to make more unisex pieces, female characters would have more pants. Unless we want to make the healer robe or skirts complaint a wider issue, but then what about the players who actually want to wear dresses or skirts?

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All joking aside, my personal preference would probably be "let any given set of gear be worn by both men and women, then give us some options". I don't need every set of healer gear to be masculine, just like I doubt others would need every bit of, say, tank gear to be feminine.

I would just like some of them to do so.

Because if the gear's icon shows a badass coat and I put it on to find it's magically become a poofy dress (see: Copied Factory gear) or the icon is a pair of pants and I put it on only to find out it's actually underwear or a miniskirt (as with a downright alarming amount of healer gear), I am likely going to feel mildly misled and a little bit cross.

I think it’s gonna be awhile before we get more attention done to genderlocks. Again, they can barely even put their time and resources towards an increase in masculine gear. I feel there’s more people that would benefit from that than the minority that wants genderlocks taken off. Like others have said in a perfect world it would be nice to have this stuff so everyone’s happy, but it’s just not viable.

hey remember when we got the ishgard school set, everyone could equip what they want and society didnt actually degrade into a hoarde of deviants? funny how that worked out.
(infact se probably made more cash since i know a couple of ppl got both sets just to mix them)