Confused about people's obsession with open world raids/dungeons.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

And this is right, both is good, but you need to not add open world content that will promote botting.

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Exactly. Open world content is needed, but it shouldn't be the way to obtain the best gear in the game.

As for open world content, I'm hoping for stuff like seiges, campains, etc. to help defend a city. Sorta like ToAU, but didn't suck as much as that did where you just waited for enemy forces in town.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

This is true, but it has never happened in the 9 or 10 year history of FF11, why do you think they would suddenly start in FF14?



Maybe you misunderstood, SE has a history of NOT enforcing their rules.

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Doesn't matter. People will always cheat or find a way around a system. It is absolutely no reason not to implement content. Period.

Sounds more to me like the community should be spamming threads complaining about SE not enforcing antiboting rules instead of a very very select few spamming post about how we should have no open world content and make it all instanced.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Sounds more to me like the community should be spamming threads complaining about SE not enforcing antiboting rules instead of a very very select few spamming post about how we should have no open world content and make it all instanced.

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Open world content is fine, but it shouldn't be something where people directly compete against each other for claim over a very small selection of mobs because they drop the best gear in the game. That will simply promote people to start making and selling bots, and after a bit, you'll have bots and get claim, or you won't. A game should not exclude people from playing content because they don't feel like using third party aps and breaking the rules set for the game.

Why is excluding people a bad thing?
You do not have to complete it if it's not your cup of tea.
Not everyone likes PvP, does that mean PvP should not be allowed?
Your thinking is flawed and just limits content.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Exactly. Open world content is needed, but it shouldn't be the way to obtain the best gear in the game.

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I still don't see why some of the BiS gear can come from open world content. I know it was stated that HQ crafted fr with materia would all be BiS, but I think BiS gear should come from a variety of different content or there is hardly a reason to do other content.

Or maybe interlink all different content to get the best gear. Get pop item from open world NM, pop instanced mob to get material for BiS gear. Idk, just a thought.

I disagree with some of that. I think SE and players should work together to get accounts banned that use bots and 3rd party apps because they are both against the rules.

Enforcing the rules should by far take a higher priority over discussing limiting players content options because existing rules are not being followed or enforced.

We should be discussing how the rules that exist should be followed and enforced, instead of how we should adjust content around the rule breakers.

Wouldn't you agree?

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Exactly. Open world content is needed, but it shouldn't be the way to obtain the best gear in the game.

As for open world content, I'm hoping for stuff like seiges, campains, etc. to help defend a city. Sorta like ToAU, but didn't suck as much as that did where you just waited for enemy forces in town.

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There has to be some incentive to openly compete with other people to get a reward. This is why the gear SHOULD be better. Factor in the fact the monster might respawn once a day or once a week. This is gear for those willing to invest their time.
If the gear at the end is alluring to you but you don't want to go through the process of getting it, even though you KNOW you don't need the gear to complete any content in the game, the problem lies with you.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Why is excluding people a bad thing?
You do not have to complete it if it's not your cup of tea.
Not everyone likes PvP, does that mean PvP should not be allowed?
Your thinking is flawed and just limits content.

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Excluding yourself from doing things is fine, people's cheating excluding you from being able to participate from things you want to get stuff from is a bad thing. I don't understand how you are so dim witted you cannot understand this. Do you even want this game to succeed? If people can't do the limited amount of content there is, they will leave and play something else, simple as that. You seem to think this is a good thing, can you explain why?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I disagree with some of that. I think SE and players should work together to get accounts banned that use bots and 3rd party apps because they are both against the rules.

Enforcing the rules should by far take a higher priority over discussing limiting players content options because existing rules are not being followed or enforced.

We should be discussing how the rules that exist should be followed and enforced, instead of how we should adjust content around the rule breakers.

Wouldn't you agree?

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People tried that in FF11, it didn't work. Good bots are not detectable.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Excluding yourself from doing things is fine, people's cheating excluding you from being able to participate from things you want to get stuff from is a bad thing. I don't understand how you are so dim witted you cannot understand this. Do you even want this game to succeed? If people can't do the limited amount of content there is, they will leave and play something else, simple as that. You seem to think this is a good thing, can you explain why?



People tried that in FF11, it didn't work. Good bots are not detectable.

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Seems you are still to dim witted to see that bots and things people do against the ToS are not good enough reasons to cancel the development of content. With this logic we should get rid of all crafting and fishing as well.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Excluding yourself from doing things is fine, people's cheating excluding you from being able to participate from things you want to get stuff from is a bad thing. I don't understand how you are so dim witted you cannot understand this. Do you even want this game to succeed?

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>Dim witted

Oh boy here we go...
First of all, you dumb ass, cheating is a problem that is hard to remedy because people will ALWAYS try to take the shortest route. I do not in any way support CHEATING. The only thing I support is content that does in fact exclude some people. Cheating is not what I am defending.
In fact, the only person bringing up cheating here is you. Cheating is a not a good reason as to why this type of content cannot exist. Cheating will ALWAYS be apparent and removing this kind of content will not lessen it by ANY means.

Stop going in circles with your pointless argument.

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If people can't do the limited amount of content there is, they will leave and play something else, simple as that. You seem to think this is a good thing, can you explain why?

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Another thing that is not a factor. What is stopping SE from developing content at all? There should be content for everyone. It's an MMORPG after all.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

People tried that in FF11, it didn't work. Good bots are not detectable.

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You do realize this is FFXIV and not FFXI right?

Thus I am attempting to start a better pattern of behavior and enforcement to discuss for the devs, instead you chose to be counter-productive by insisting its not possible.

It appears your options are to screw everyone elses option over solving the actual problem?

There are bots that run through instances. There are very smart people who can take advantage of simple gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

>Dim witted

Oh boy here we go...
First of all, you dumb ass, cheating is a problem that is hard to remedy because people will ALWAYS try to take the shortest route. I do not in any way support CHEATING. The only thing I support is content that does in fact exclude some people. Cheating is not what I am defending.
In fact, the only person bringing up cheating here is you. Cheating is a not a good reason as to why this type of content cannot exist. Cheating will ALWAYS be apparent and removing this kind of content will not lessen it by ANY means.

Stop going in circles with your pointless argument.

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no need in arguing. this game should have no content nor characters. ya know i don't think they want any dow, dom, dol, or doh since there are already bots for each one. using their line of thought we should remove all classes and all characters from the game since every class has bots already in game.

you are right people should be more worried about the cheaters, but that would destroy their argument about they don't want open world content because they are so bad they cannot get a claim nor defeat the enemies.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

People tried that in FF11, it didn't work. Good bots are not detectable.

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serious !?

ps: this remind me of my nubs day when I start mmorpg

FFXI had instanced boss fights (BC), no reason why they can't keep the dungeons open and the boss fights instanced.

As far as coffer key mobs, they just need to spread out the mobs that can drop the key. Think along the lines of Padfoot in Lufaise Meadows (FFXI-CoP).. but scaled back a bit.

Wiisam why you no stay to converse? (ლಠ益ಠ)

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

FFXI had instanced boss fights (BC), no reason why they can't keep the dungeons open and the boss fights instanced.

As far as coffer key mobs, just make more than one group and spread them out more.

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It's amazing people still seem to hate this idea, I really wonder what happened to MMOs that open world is such a bad thing..

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Originally Posted by Coglin

You do realize this is FFXIV and not FFXI right?

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You do realize both games are made and run by the same company right?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

It appears your options are to screw everyone elses option over solving the actual problem?

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The correct solution is to not add content that involves competition between players that can be monopolized by bots. Fish bots, craft bots, etc do not keep a player from accessing content the botter is doing, in this case, crafting and fishing. Having a monster that drops the best gear in the game randomly appear out in some random zone where everyone has to try and claim it will promote claim bots, and those bots will block content from other players, and that is not acceptable. SE has shown time and time again they are incapable of doing anything about bots, why you suddenly think they will be able to handle it is just beyond logical thought. When was the last time they did anything about cheating? Salvage bans? Do you all know about that? There was this duping glitch in FFXXI, the exploit was known about for a year and a half by SE, and they did absolutely nothing, until one day they just decided to fix it and just ban anyone who used it. A year and a half they knew about this glitch and did nothing. If this doesn't show you SE's resolve to fix the problems with their games I don't know what will. How about the fact that something like 90% of all PC FFXI players use windower, which is against the TOS and SE has never done anything about it? Why int he world do you all think FFXIV will be any different?

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

There are bots that run through instances. There are very smart people who can take advantage of simple gameplay.

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This sort of thing doesn't affect other players ability to do content though, I am only against preventing everyone from being able to do stuff. The only thing that should determine what you can do is your ability to find people to play with, what you want to do, and all of your skill levels.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

There has to be some incentive to openly compete with other people to get a reward. This is why the gear SHOULD be better. Factor in the fact the monster might respawn once a day or once a week. This is gear for those willing to invest their time.
If the gear at the end is alluring to you but you don't want to go through the process of getting it, even though you KNOW you don't need the gear to complete any content in the game, the problem lies with you.

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I'm all for competition, but camping a mob is hardly competition when you're doing jack sh*t half the time.

I see, your still sticking with the idea that its better to assume the rules will be broken and never enforced and to limit content over pushing SE to enforce the rules.

that makes your outlook part of the problem, not the solution.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I see, your still sticking with the idea that its better to assume the rules will be broken and never enforced and to limit content over pushing SE to enforce the rules.

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Problem is people that program hacks will always be a step ahead of the game. If a bot gets shut down, another will take it's place. Or people will actually pay a coder to make them a bot.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You do realize both games are made and run by the same company right?

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And what does this have to do with anything? XIV isn't XI, nor should it attempt to be XI

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

And what does this have to do with anything? XIV isn't XI, nor should it attempt to be XI

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XIV has more stuff server side that was meant to help detect bots and well... we seen how well that went didnt' we?

On our server we mostly respect each other far as coffer camps concerned, if its taken then its taken, we dont steal or grief each other for it.

Sadly theirs some JPs who dont comprehend this and just go on to steal anyway. When this happens, they either take it, get MPKed, or muscled out by the first party bringing in more people. To be honest its disgusting when players try to take your coffer spot from you, and even more unbelievable when a group of JP players do it when you would think they would have better respect for others.

Tbh my ls doesn't condone mpking even if its to protect your coffer spot claim. But if this continues to happen in later open world dungeons, its gonna be unavoidable. If a group doesnt want to be part of the community and wants to bullshit others, then they have to be taken out, like a cancer.

My interpretation of the thread's direction is not against open-world content, but against competitive open-world dungeons. The title of the thread cannot change without a moderator, so it will likely provoke the present responses on pages 6 and 7 (viewing 40 posts a page).

An example: A quest mob that is a dungeon boss (or unique mob). A dungeon boss that has loot that is worth camping.
Ideal scenario: Questing party arrives. Persuades camping party that they need to kill the boss to complete the quest. Diplomacy check. Success. Quest party succeeds with boss, get credit for quest or quest item, then move on. Camping party continues to do its thing.
Problem(s): It only takes one loot lusting player on the questing side (claims mob a second time), one camping player that doesn't agree that (claims mob, entitlement), or one camping player that wasn't paying attention to the agreement (claims the mob by reflex) to create a misunderstanding and/or hostility between or amongst the players, groups/parties, and by association, the linkshell/clan/guild/legion.
Solution(s) if this comes to pass in FFXIV: Separate camp-worthy drops from quest mobs. Post an announcement that separation of epic loot from quest mobs on open-world content to reduce the odds of a party camping anyway in hopes of a rare drop.

And deviating over to the stronghold keys:
* Stronghold keys should not be limited to one specific enemy, but to any of the enemies in the dungeon. (i.e. weaker enemies have a chance to drop lower tier keys, stronger enemies have a chance to drop upper tier keys).

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I see, your still sticking with the idea that its better to assume the rules will be broken and never enforced and to limit content over pushing SE to enforce the rules.

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What has SE ever done to show they are actually enforcing their own rules? They've shut down 3 programs that I can think of -NASA, FFXIApp, and Clipper. And in each case 1 or 2 new ones has sprung up in their place to do what they did. The simple fact that Kaces, Arenz, Wizbot, FFace, Apradar, Windower, Exiled, MobID, L-GM, ja0wait, Auto-it, Slacker, Scanner, Sendit, Auto exec, Spellcast, etc are all still up and working while only 3 have been shut down is proof of my point.

(And thats only a small sample of third party apps, there's 100 or more I didn't list)

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

The correct solution is to not add content that involves competition between players that can be monopolized by bots. Fish bots, craft bots, etc do not keep a player from accessing content the botter is doing, in this case, crafting and fishing. Having a monster that drops the best gear in the game randomly appear out in some random zone where everyone has to try and claim it will promote claim bots, and those bots will block content from other players, and that is not acceptable. SE has shown time and time again they are incapable of doing anything about bots, why you suddenly think they will be able to handle it is just beyond logical thought. When was the last time they did anything about cheating? Salvage bans?

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this is perhaps the stupidest theing I've ever read. Please tell me you're joking?

I can argue that crafting and fishing bots can corner the market on items, reduce te price and therefore keep of the legit players from being able to sell items in order to buy other, better items, but I thought that was kind of obvious. Guess not. It may not be directly affecting them like a NM claim, but it's the same thing.

Either way, not developing content because there MIGHT be a bot made is dumb. This content isn't even out yet and you are already claiming there will be bots and there is no way to stop them. It's honestly a little insulting to the programmers an the devs of this game who may not have worked on 11.

Please get your head out of your as* and realize open world competitive content is needed alongside instances and other forms of content.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Please get your head out of your as* and realize open world competitive content is needed alongside instances and other forms of content.

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WoW is the most successful MMO around right? How much open world competitive content do they have?

Im with the OP on this about not getting it. On the content side I would always prefer things to be instanced, the lack of quality that a non-instanced NM or event can potentially have versus a Instanced area trumps any silly notions of its more realistic or its more immersive in my opinion. Why would you even care about that to such an extreme extent? Its not like I wont know Im playing a game, A well done instanced event will be more engauging and therefore suck me in more actually, which will create more of this so called immersion in my opinion. Regardless, I will still know Im playing a game, so Fun and engauging will be more what im looking for than (LOL) I cant see other players....... seriously I dont get people some time. I try to see it from the other point of view, but you might as well be telling me that I dont need food to live or air to breathe. Agree to disagree I guess? .............. people are strange sometimes.

As for the past few pages of discussion, yes Instances get rid of a lot of problems and annoyances that OW content can so easily create/allow. Why would you want to subject yourself to that?

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

WoW is the most successful MMO around right? How much open world competitive content do they have?

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Wait I'm playing WoW? Fck, I thought this was FFXIV. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

Im with the OP on this about not getting it. On the content side I would always prefer things to be instanced, the lack of quality that a non-instanced NM or event can potentially have versus a Instanced area trumps any silly notions of its more realistic or its more immersive in my opinion. Why would you even care about that to such an extreme extent? Its not like I wont know Im playing a game, A well done instanced event will be more engauging and therefore suck me in more actually, which will create more of this so called immersion in my opinion. Regardless, I will still know Im playing a game, so Fun and engauging will be more what im looking for than (LOL) I cant see other players....... seriously I dont get people some time. I try to see it from the other point of view, but you might as well be telling me that I dont need food to live or air to breathe. Agree to disagree I guess? .............. people are strange sometimes.

As for the past few pages of discussion, yes Instances get rid of a lot of problems and annoyances that OW content can so easily create/allow. Why would you want to subject yourself to that?

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Because instances don't allow us to compete with other players. All you do is gather 7 other people and basically teleport to another world where no one else can enter to kill mobs. While I agree it can be more challenging battle mechanics, I like claim wars and camping NMs and there is no reason why it should not be in game.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Wait I'm playing WoW? Fck, I thought this was FFXIV. My bad.

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You said open world competitive game play between players for monsters was required for the game to be successful, I was simply pointing that you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Because instances don't allow us to compete with other players. All you do is gather 7 other people and basically teleport to another world where no one else can enter to kill mobs. While I agree it can be more challenging battle mechanics, I like claim wars and camping NMs and there is no reason why it should not be in game.

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My Argument: Player A should not be able to block Player B from being able to do stuff in a game everyone pays the same price for.

Your Argument: I want to block Player B from doing stuff because it's fun for me.

I wonder which of our ideals will win more people over to wanting to play FF14! You, who who only want a small minority of cheaters to be able to enjoy everything, or me.

Well, I would put my info on this AGAIN, but here are my takes on it, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ungeon-please! http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nced-dungeons.

Also, JOIN NOW!!! With free NON-competition PvE! It's the the greatest with the best instances, VINDICTUS! If you wan't some open world, head on over to MABINOGI! They both provide the BEST instances around!~

Fixed all problems ever, now go have some fun with those two games!

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Originally Posted by Tango

Because instances don't allow us to compete with other players. All you do is gather 7 other people and basically teleport to another world where no one else can enter to kill mobs. While I agree it can be more challenging battle mechanics, I like claim wars and camping NMs and there is no reason why it should not be in game.

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This is what I think of that:
Instances get rid of a lot of problems and annoyances that OW content can so easily create/allow!!!

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

My Argument: Player A should not be able to block Player B from being able to do stuff in a game everyone pays the same price for.

Your Argument: I want to block Player B from doing stuff because it's fun for me.

I wonder which of our ideals will win more people over to wanting to play FF14! You, who who only want a small minority of cheaters to be able to enjoy everything, or me.

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Of course I wanna block player A and wanna kill em, that is my goal in demon/dark souls! They send hate mail and everything after I kill them! It's soo wonderful!

what i'm getting at here, there is no difference! I don't wanna be a zombie in a game!

If you don't like it? Well, play offline!

Also, if you read my petition, you can see for yourself! That is the ideal of the people.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

This is what I think of that:
Instances get rid of a lot of problems and annoyances that OW content can so easily create/allow!!!

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What problems? List with bullets items please so it is easier for me to refute them thanks

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Of course I wanna block player A and wanna kill em, that is my goal in demon/dark souls! They send hate mail and everything after I kill them! It's soo wonderful!

what i'm getting at here, there is no difference! I don't wanna be a zombie in a game!

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*unplugs from the internet as fast as possible!*
*only wanted to go human to kindle a fire for more Estus flasks :-( *
*only stayed online to read warning messages... like that bastard that wrote "TRAP" on the stairs and as I'm reading it, a giant boulder rolls down and hits me. Could he have put it any sooner?*

I think if I didn't have such bad experiences in the PvP, I would leave the internet on.

i.e. someone invading my world, I can't see them, get backstab one shot. I try to use this PvP item to invade their world for revenge and it never finds them, run out of items.

Then later trying to give it another shot, I run into some level 10 person that I think I'm doing well on, but his life doesn't seem to drop. Then he kills me in one hit. I find the Book of the Guilty and see they have insane stats for a level 10 and I don't even know how it's possible even as I'm progressing into the game (I can understand equipment upgrades, but can't get over 1000 attack, defenses, and I *still* don't have more than 10000 HP let alone 1000 (not Vitality invested). New Game+ equipment? But still level 10? madness I say!!!

I just say screw it and don't play online anymore.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You said open world competitive game play between players for monsters was required for the game to be successful, I was simply pointing that you're wrong.

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I don't think I said this outright, I said there needs to be a variety of meaningful content enjoyed by all types of people to be successful. You are basically excluding part of the player base by not developing open world content.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

My Argument: Player A should not be able to block Player B from being able to do stuff in a game everyone pays the same price for.

Your Argument: I want to block Player B from doing stuff because it's fun for me.

I wonder which of our ideals will win more people over to wanting to play FF14! You, who who only want a small minority of cheaters to be able to enjoy everything, or me.

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1. Small minority of cheaters? Lol that is all you can think of us cheating. This guy cheats here,this other guy cheat here. Seriously stop, I'm starting to think you might cheat.

2. I don't want to block anyone and open world content does not block anyone. It give a fair chance to anyone to claim a mob. It's called competition. People play sports because they want to beat the other guy or atop them from scoring, why can't we have that here. Competition is good. And before you say anything, this time try and not to use the excuse of bots when disagreeing with his.

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Originally Posted by Tango

What problems? List with bullets items please so it is easier for me to refute them thanks

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Simple, bots are a huge problem that you can't get rid of for good in open world competition.