Goodbye strength tanks. Let us never be forgotten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Didn't see the edit, my bad. Maybe I am seriously misjudging something then because a difference of 200-300 dps between a good tank and an average dps seems like a pretty small gap to me. Even a difference of 300-400 dps between a good tank and a good dps of equal item level seems like a horribly small gap.

---

It's all good. How you see the gap difference is subjective, and there's not much to discuss with that, seeing as it's mostly a subjective matter. What I can say is that it requires much more effort for a tank to do 1.1k DPS than for a DPS of the same item level to pull that much, so i see it as their reward for understanding their job much deeper than a DPS who parsed the same does. There are other things to take into consideration as well, however, what content you're doing being being a better example.

Self healing, more DPS, and stronger group utility aside, another reason that so many tanks have gravitated towards strength is that no content in this game right now warrants more than 18k HP, as well as constant use of your tanking stance (this sounds a little off-topic in regards to our conversation, but see me through, here). Because of this, you could argue that because the lack of content present where in terms of group utility, DPS, and efficiency, you want a tank to be "tankier", is why you tend to see such a small margin between tank dps and damage-dealer dps. In order to pull the DPS that the Warrior in that group did, they would need to be in constant Deliverance, as well as burn through their defensive cooldowns in an offensive manner in order to accrue Abandon stacks. But now, go into a fight like Thordan EX, for example, which requires a tank to mitigate damage like hell, and the margin between Main tank DPS and damage-dealer DPS will be much bigger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Are we talking about average savage dps here or average pug dps? Because my brother (who is the major source of the numbers I gave, he parses) says he almost never sees a dps break 1.2k in Void Ark or Alexander Normal and that the lowest dps in the party are often down at 800 or so. I'm talking about average pug dps here just to be clear. Random DF peoples.

---

I'm talking about the average DPS that a damage dealer should be doing at their item level, not the average DPS of people who play this game. If you're comparing a player who knows how to play their job, they should be compared to other players who know how to play their job. Comparing a good player to ones that don't have their level of skill as a basis for judging one job against another would be inaccurate for these purposes.

As a sidenote, while parsing can let you see your numbers and compare yourself to the rest of the players of the group, please keep in mind that context in which they are used. Item levels have to be taken into account, as well as job composition. Was there a DRG to buff BRD and MCH DPS? Where there 2 MNKS? Was one of the MNKS keeping up DK so the other one could constantly use Bootshine? Was there a BRD to buff caster DPS? Was there an Astrologian? Who were they using The Balance on? Was there a WAR to keep up Storm's Eye so the NIN didn't have to use Dancing Edge. Was the fight easy enough for the tank to trade mitigation for DPS and group utility when appropriate? Taking that into account, I'm using that information to tell you what the average DPS of a damage dealer SHOULD be at that item level, I'm not going to go into FF logs and tell you that a BLM shouldn't be parsing less than 2k DPS when I look up a fight that greatly benefits stationary casting.

I honestly don't understand what people think will change aside from hp and the suffix on your accessories. I still intend to stance dance and manage cooldowns while holding aggro as I did anyway. Only difference is now I don't have to have two sets of gear on me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I honestly don't understand what people think will change aside from hp and the suffix on your accessories. I still intend to stance dance and manage cooldowns while holding aggro as I did anyway. Only difference is now I don't have to have two sets of gear on me.

---

If anything, we'll be more encouraged to stance dance due to HP bloat as well as PLD Oaths and Grit now being off the global cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odett

If anything, we'll be more encouraged to stance dance due to HP bloat as well as PLD Oaths and Grit now being off the global cooldown.

---

i think they are still on the global cooldown, they just don't interupt combos now

I'm glad str tanks are gone and have no fondness for them.

There were two types of str tanks. The first is an endgame player who recognized that dps checks could be met with str tanking instead of waiting for dps to gear up. Devs should have long ago fixed this loophole. Dps checks should be met by dps, not by healers and tanks.

The second type of str tanks is someone who just wants to dps and doesn't like long queues. They often didn't have the mindset of a tank, aren't a team player, and make things harder on the team, especially the healer, to satisfy their own ego and need for large dps numbers. Good riddance.

As a healer I preferred vit tanks over str tank prima donnas, and as a tank, I went for a mix of str and vit so that it was a bit easier to hold aggro but still give the healer some extra cushion. If people had used a mix of str/vit for pugs, str tank would have been fine, but selfish str tanks went 100% str no matter how bad their gear and skill was.

HA HA HA HA! The joke's on YOU, Healer scum! Bads are always six months behind the curve! And they don't read forums or patch notes! YOU'LL BE DEALING WITH STRENGTH TANKS UNTIL THE NEXT EXPANSION!!!

LET CHAOS THRIVE!!!

In a way, the thread title is correct, in an ironic sense. Yes, STR tanks should never be forgotten. In the sense that they were among the pinnacle of bad mechanics design.

It had very little to do with what healers preferred or the DPS the tanks were capable of dishing out. It was the idea that tanks needed two sets of gear (and/or going to the extreme, the absolute top tanks needed pentamelded accessories while no other class really gave a damn) to be considered optimal, if not actually FUNCTION in the game depending on the twat level of their peers. On top of that, the reality is that the community also heavily emphasized one of the two sets (sometimes completely foregoing the set that the game had always pushed the classes towards in terms of loot rolls).

Congratulations. You guys turned a simple farewell thread into bad healer meeting :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

HA HA HA HA! The joke's on YOU, Healer scum! Bads are always six months behind the curve! And they don't read forums or patch notes! YOU'LL BE DEALING WITH STRENGTH TANKS UNTIL THE NEXT EXPANSION!!!

LET CHAOS THRIVE!!!

---

Here, eat a snickers. You always turn into a prick when you're hungry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IzVale

Here, eat a snickers. You always turn into a prick when you're hungry.

---

I seriously LOL'd at this and pictured Joe Pesci talking about STR tanks lol.

The least they could've done while forcing us to go back to fending is make parry useful so you don't end up trying to avoid it entirely or if that's too much to ask for then just get rid of it from the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kalasnikov

Congratulations. You guys turned a simple farewell thread into bad healer meeting :/

---

It is a celebration meeting! There aren't many healers who like to let the tanks die, even if they are str warriors... so any boost to their surviability is a welcomed changes.

As much as the tanks like to push their dps, there are also healers who like to push their dps, and because the awesome tanks have statics, we are mostly left with the less optimal tanks. Till now there was this problem that sometimes to finish your dps rotation you had to gamble the tank's life on their CD management - now we get the HP cusion that should stop a lot of deaths. Yes, the additional HP might not be neccessary - when the healer is healing full time. But for the dpsing healers this is definitely quality of life improvement.

I won't miss the str geared tanks with less hp than myself. Might aswell have let the drg tank if you're that undergeared on the left side and want to play dps.

I won't miss the str tanks that turn off tank stance in the hardest hitting phases of the dungeon/raid, giving me no time to dps as healer because they are taking more damage than they have to on top of having low hp. When 3 extended hots and a 10% reduced damage buff can't sustain you, you should probably be tank stance because you are wasting the damage potential of healers.

I won't miss the str geared tanks that don't use cooldowns. They make it more difficult for me to dps than vit tanks who don't know cooldowns. At least with a bad vit tank they have a big cushion for me to work with while they drop like a rock.

I won't miss the good str tanks either. Why would I? They will still exist, except now they will have extra hp on top of having high damage potential. Sounds like a bonus to me. My only fear are the tanks ignorant to the changes who will continue wearing str...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

Yes, the additional HP might not be neccessary - when the healer is healing full time. But for the dpsing healers this is definitely quality of life improvement.

---

You said it well.

I think one of the things I'm lamenting the most of the change and going back to full fending accessories is them having parry -_-

I actually wish they would nerf tanks nerf'em real good and keep dps checks high. Talk about world burning. Dps would actually have to git gud or be stuck forever cuz tanks and healers cant carry you through content anymore

Okay, this is amazing. Full 210 STR attack power is 841. Full 210 VIT attack power is 846. What a god damn nerf. Huge. Screw this, I'm still using full STR, that way I have no extra useless Parry but tons of Critical hit rate.

Edit: On my pentameld set, my attack power just rised to 858. So, uh...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Okay, this is amazing. Full 210 STR attack power is 841. Full 210 VIT attack power is 846. What a god damn nerf. Huge. Screw this, I'm still using full STR, that way I have no extra useless Parry but tons of Critical hit rate.

---

It was never a nerf to begin with, it was so you can have health and damage together..

Going strength now is just stupid tbh. Good luck in savage if you insist on being stubborn tho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It was never a nerf to begin with, it was so you can have health and damage together..

Going strength now is just stupid tbh. Good luck in savage if you insist on being stubborn tho.

---

Then again, speak for yourself. I was full STR and, to me, it is a HUGE nerf. You may have come across some awful tanks, and so have I, but I am not one of them. This is a nerf. Also, if Savage needs me to go full VIT, then I'll go full VIT, like I did back when Savage got released, but for the rest of the content and even Savage once it was on farming, I did STR. And it was so much more fun and effective both.

200ap nerf, thanks SE real fun. /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyrn

200ap nerf, thanks SE real fun. /s

---

How dare you! It's not a nerf!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Then again, speak for yourself. I was full STR and, to me, it is a HUGE nerf. You may have come across some awful tanks, and so have I, but I am not one of them. This is a nerf. Also, if Savage needs me to go full VIT, then I'll go full VIT, like I did back when Savage got released, but for the rest of the content and even Savage once it was on farming, I did STR. And it was so much more fun and effective both.

---

How does the skill of my tanks have anything to do with it....?

A nerf implies numbers going down.

How you can say more health and more AP by using vit=nerf is beyond me. So you won't do the absurd damage of a full strength tank in 3.1. Boohoo, you have health to compensate.

It's a rework at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

How does the skill of my tanks have anything to do with it....?

A nerf implies numbers going down.

How you can say more health and more AP by using vit=nerf is beyond me. So you won't do the absurd damage of a full strength tank in 3.1. Boohoo, you have health to compensate.

It's a rework at best.

---

From having 1000~1100 AP to ~850. I think numbers went down. I did not want the HP before, I do not want it now. Sure, they most likely worked the new content around the new bloated HP, but they could have very well done it around the expected HP with pre 3.2 numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Okay, this is amazing. Full 210 STR attack power is 841. Full 210 VIT attack power is 846. What a god damn nerf. Huge. Screw this, I'm still using full STR, that way I have no extra useless Parry but tons of Critical hit rate.

Edit: On my pentameld set, my attack power just rised to 858. So, uh...

---

Wait.... 5 point increase is a nerf o.O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

Wait.... 5 point increase is a nerf o.O

---

Actually, /clap at you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

Wait.... 5 point increase is a nerf o.O

---

Sadly you're misunderstanding him.

He's talking purely in terms of 3.2 numbers there - so it's the comparative difference between full STR, full VIT, in 3.2.

Originally, in full STR, he was much higher, so that's why it's a 'nerf' - because they lowered his numbers.

150 melded still give me about 20 AP more than full 210 fending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyrn

150 melded still give me about 20 AP more than full 210 fending.

---

What I said before, so it's a mix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

From having 1000~1100 AP to ~850. I think numbers went down. I did not want the HP before, I do not want it now. Sure, they most likely worked the new content around the new bloated HP, but they could have very well done it around the expected HP with pre 3.2 numbers.

---

Fuuuuuuuudge, that is actually pretty nasty. Sounds like dailies just became a chore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eidolon

Sadly you're misunderstanding him.

He's talking purely in terms of 3.2 numbers there - so it's the comparative difference between full STR, full VIT, in 3.2.

Originally, in full STR, he was much higher, so that's why it's a 'nerf' - because they lowered his numbers.

---

Ah. He should've said so. XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

Fuuuuuuuudge, that is actually pretty nasty. Sounds like dailies just became a chore.

---

I know, right? That was big.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

Ah. He should've said so. XD

---

Why would you think I'd compare 3.2 with 3.2? You should've read what this thread was about.

Were people playing tanks to see big numbers? Surely just play a DPS, then...

(note: difference between optimizing DPS and seeing big numbers, the former of which all tanks still have)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Were people playing tanks to see big numbers? Surely just play a DPS, then...

(note: difference between optimizing DPS and seeing big numbers, the former of which all tanks still have)

---

Just made it way more interesting. We still held the tank responsibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Just made it way more interesting. We still held the tank responsibility.

---

You surely mean "held the healer responsible". :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

You surely mean "held the healer responsible". :P

---

Again, you're talking about bad tanks here. People need to see the difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Again, you're talking about bad tanks here. People need to see the difference.

---

When the good tanks are the minority, it is hard to see the difference.

I was just joking tho, the bad tanks usually can't read the forums anyways and those who do stop being that bad eventually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

I'm so ready to forget them. >.>

Good STR tanks were a great addition to any dungeon, but the bad ones made my healing life miserable, far more than bad VIT ones ever did.

Good tanks will now no longer need to pack two sets of gear, and their damage, while lowering somewhat, will probably end up being comparable to pentamelded accessories (but without the massive gil cost associated with them). Overall, I think this is a much needed and welcome change.

---

yup so lets punish all tanks for the bad ones. Now I just wish healers wouldnt be so lazy and actually DO some dps...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

When the good tanks are the minority, it is hard to see the difference.

I was just joking tho, the bad tanks usually can't read the forums anyways and those who do stop being that bad eventually.

---

Maybe so, but that's a matter of perspective; bad tanks aren't gonna automatically become better or more durable now. They're gonna still be bad, and you're still gonna suffer them.

We'll have to see in some intial runs with DPS that are good. If I have to hide in tank stance 99% of the time instead of contributing in ways that are meaningful, then the class just got a lot less fun. I don't want to be a slave to a healer. If that's the case then i'll gear up SCH again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

Maybe so, but that's a matter of perspective; bad tanks aren't gonna automatically become better or more durable now. They're gonna still be bad, and you're still gonna suffer them.

---

I myself am going to roll the paladin this patch cycle. Gotta teach those lazy healers how to do some dps :P

So far it seems vit and str contribute the same to attack power, or with a minimal difference (like 1 point difference out of 800-something). Personally I'll go fending on all accessories save for those that have parry. In those specific cases I'll use the slaying version instead.