[GM] Please take notice. Make statement on housing.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

How is that the same there only limited amount of runs that can be done or something? Am I going to get locked out out a trial or dungeon cause people selling too many runs?

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The way that you dismiss run selling is exactly the same way that people dismiss your argument. Some people are genuinely upset that other people get carried through top raids, because it's not fair and they don't deserve drops/titles from them.

Did you get locked out of buying a house because someone else bought one to resell?

I'm sure the reason that there's no official statement is because it's a Pandora's Box to take that step. Once they state that doing something in game for in game currency, that wasn't explicitly against the ToS, is now explicitly against the ToS, they end up with a flood of people reporting everything that they don't like. Run selling, early pulling, undercutting, selling off MB, casinos, PF discrimination, every stupid little thing that "isn't fair" is open game. Someone else's game experience is indirectly ruining my game experience, make it stop.

It's easier to deal with it quietly and hope it goes away with the new roach motels of Ishgard.

I'm glad Im on a server without the pf full of house sellers or rather rip off artists who buy a plot just to resell to make a profit.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I'm sure the reason that there's no official statement is because it's a Pandora's Box to take that step. Once they state that doing something in game for in game currency, that wasn't explicitly against the ToS, is now explicitly against the ToS, they end up with a flood of people reporting everything that they don't like. Run selling, early pulling, undercutting, selling off MB, casinos, PF discrimination, every stupid little thing that "isn't fair" is open game. Someone else's game experience is indirectly ruining my game experience, make it stop.

It's easier to deal with it quietly and hope it goes away with the new roach motels of Ishgard.

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Yeah, they would rather leave it officially a grey area and hope the problem solves itself in 3.3. Not the first time they took this approach and it won't be the last time they do it. I'm of the opinion that, if you (SE) are banning people for something, they should say something formal about it, but radio silence is what we get.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The way that you dismiss run selling is exactly the same way that people dismiss your argument. Some people are genuinely upset that other people get carried through top raids, because it's not fair and they don't deserve drops/titles from them.

Did you get locked out of buying a house because someone else bought one to resell?

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Being carried is not a new thing it been happening since people became strong to enough to do it, even before housing was a thing and happens in pretty much any other MMO. As for the house you are not buying a house from them you a bribing them to give up the rights to the the house when you then have to buy the plot from the game. I was talking about that in FC and few of them even said the same thing about how someone was saying selling runs and selling houses was a fair comparison

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Originally Posted by Lexia

As for the house you are not buying a house from them you a bribing them to give up the rights to the the house when you then have to buy the plot from the game.

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So you're paying in-game currency, for someone to do something in-game, that is not listed as an activity against the ToS?

Run selling fits those same categories. The difference between the two is you don't mind one, but despise the other.

Still no word. Oh well

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So you're paying in-game currency, for someone to do something in-game, that is not listed as an activity against the ToS?

Run selling fits those same categories. The difference between the two is you don't mind one, but despise the other.

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I don't personally buy runs and I do think it a lazy way of playing the game but the gil they giving the person is getting them something, they not paying a person and then having to then again pay the system to enter the fight. Buying up houses just to resell them for 10x the value is a a$$ move being that you have to buy the land on top of paying what ever outrageous price the scalper wants. There a difference between selling a house cause you don't want it anymore or just buying empty plots to resell cause they want to take advantage of a broken system. Oh and by your logic pretty much all crafters would have to be banned also then cause people pay them in game currency to do something for them instead of them crafting it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I Oh and by your logic pretty much all crafters would have to be banned also then cause people pay them in game currency to do something for them instead of them crafting it themselves.

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That's essentially what you're asking for with your logic too, though. Yes it's a dick move to buy tons of property just to resell, but that's the way it goes, it's not something that I, personally do, but I don't feel that I have a right to tell other people they can't use their ingame currency to do as they wished with, it's like telling a crafter they're not allowed to sell that shiny new craft glamour gear for 8,000,000 gil when in reality it only requires maybe 1/3rd of the price they're asking. If people's game is "distrupted" by the house sellers, then their game should be disrupted by the craft-sharks that overprice everything, or the run sellers asking for exorbitant amounts of gil to help someone get through a piece of content that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do, because, like it, or not, it's all the same fundamentally. People using gil to get themselves ahead at the expense of other players.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

If people's game is "distrupted" by the house sellers, then their game should be disrupted by the craft-sharks that overprice everything, or the run sellers asking for exorbitant amounts of gil to help someone get through a piece of content that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do, because, like it, or not, it's all the same fundamentally. People using gil to get themselves ahead at the expense of other players.

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To add to that, we regularly see complaint threads here about crafters gouging, asking for SE to ban run selling, and the like. When you leave the market to fend for itself, this is what happens.

@Lexia, Getting angry that a market behaved like a market is silly. If you want to get angry, Square had the chance to sort this out for personal housing prior to it's release. They chose not to. Is it a jerk move to do the high markup resell? Yup! But it's a symptom of the system we have.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Oh and by your logic pretty much all crafters would have to be banned also then cause people pay them in game currency to do something for them instead of them crafting it themselves.

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By my logic house flippers shouldn't be banned. By your logic, crafters should be banned. Like I said before:

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Once they state that doing something in game for in game currency, that wasn't explicitly against the ToS, is now explicitly against the ToS, they end up with a flood of people reporting everything that they don't like. Run selling, early pulling, undercutting, selling off MB, casinos, PF discrimination, every stupid little thing that "isn't fair" is open game.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

By my logic house flippers shouldn't be banned. By your logic, crafters should be banned. Like I said before:

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Well no one has been banned for flipping houses I've only seen people get warnings, get a warning on your account and being banned are two differently things.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well no one has been banned for flipping houses I've only seen people get warnings, get a warning on your account and being banned are two differently things.

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people may not have been yet but the threat is there (if you choose to believe the screenshots), that is even too much. If one action of selling in game services for in game currency is deemed to receive a warning, then ALL legitimate actions that people charge for should be. That means run-selling, over pricing crafting items/mats, house-flipping, FC-selling, everything.

Here is our usual NA official statement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzN3yJXlWrg

classy yup... :mad:

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I don't personally buy runs and I do think it a lazy way of playing the game but the gil they giving the person is getting them something, they not paying a person and then having to then again pay the system to enter the fight. Buying up houses just to resell them for 10x the value is a a$$ move being that you have to buy the land on top of paying what ever outrageous price the scalper wants. There a difference between selling a house cause you don't want it anymore or just buying empty plots to resell cause they want to take advantage of a broken system. Oh and by your logic pretty much all crafters would have to be banned also then cause people pay them in game currency to do something for them instead of them crafting it themselves.

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My economics professor would beg to differ with you. An outrageous price is a price so high that no one will pay it. It's totally rational to charge the highest price you can that people will pay. And the reason people will pay a certain price is because paying it increases their well-being. So both people win. You're misguided if you think it is morally wrong. It is just markets doing what they do.

If a house flipper didn't buy the plot, the plot would still sell very fast to someone else. The game would subtract the same amount of currency from circulation and every single person who was going to buy a house except two would be in exactly the same situation of not being able to get a house. The only two people whose situation would be changed is the person who would've flipped the house (they're now worse off) and the person who bought the house (who is better off). If the person who bought the house is different than the person who would've bought it from the house flipper (which is reasonable since they didn't get to the plot before the house flipper) then they are also worse off (because they would've had a house before albeit at an inflated price and now they don't). So you either have one person better off and one person worse off (a wash) or you have one person better off and two people worse off (which is a decrease in overall well-being from the house flipping scenario). Either way you look at it, there is nothing saying that house flipping diminishes overall happiness. If anything, it increases it.

The way third parties should handle unfair market situations is not to shut down the market or cap prices, but to allow the cheated parties to enter the market (by helping them financially or making goods available to them). In other words, the housing situation is and always has been an SE problem to fix and ONLY an SE problem (and the only way to fix it properly is simply to introduce more housing). Quit blaming other players. You can't take advantage of someone who knows the value of what they're buying and willingly decides to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

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Couldn't have said it better!

bump cause this thread holds people who defend the fact yes buy a plot and sell it forgeting the major part they cant are innocent and are no worse than crafters.

sorry defenders but when you sell a house for say double they still have to pay say tripple cause there is no system to sell a house so anyone who does is an exsploiter.

Those evil crafters thinking that their time and effort is worth gil. Don't get me started on the gatherers that list their wares for more than a NPC shop would pay for them.

I remember that time I paid $20 to buy the last ticket to concert that I never planned to attend in that hypothetical situation that didn't happen. It was just the last ticket and I knew others would want it, so I just haadddd to have it. Then I resold the ticket to that one guy who wanted to go for $200. Is it illegal? In many places yes it is, with the exception of selling a ticket for less than what you paid for it. Almost everywhere it is looked down on, by both the state and the event administrators.

As a house flipper, you are using your money to directly harm another player's experience. House flipping is not a positive impact investment, like buying stocks and later reselling them, effectively loaning a company to expand. You take what you don't care about and hold it hostage over players who truly do desire a house as an end game goal.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

The way third parties should handle unfair market situations is not to shut down the market or cap prices, but to allow the cheated parties to enter the market (by helping them financially or making goods available to them). In other words, the housing situation is and always has been an SE problem to fix and ONLY an SE problem (and the only way to fix it properly is simply to introduce more housing). Quit blaming other players. You can't take advantage of someone who knows the value of what they're buying and willingly decides to buy it.

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This is do 100% agree with. Although it is somewhat Communistic/Totalitarian of SE to handle what should be a simple market, it is completely necessary, since the community can't resist exploitation when they smell it.

I Like how up until recently no one had a problem with people selling houses. Wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the chance of getting a house but unfortunately not getting one?

Also serious question. If its against the rules to sell a house in PF shouldn't the people who are advertising they are buying a house in PF be given warnings as well? It is straight up trying to get others to break a "rule"

Edit: Also I love how yet another thread is drifting towards the crafters = Satan.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I Like how up until recently no one had a problem with people selling houses. Wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the chance of getting a house but unfortunately not getting one?

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There were a fair number of threads from folk in high pop servers complaining about it, but you're right that the indignation and fury had not gotten to the level we see here.

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Edit: Also I love how yet another thread is drifting towards the crafters = Satan.

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Yeah, I leveled all of them so I wouldn't have to deal with the terrible market board prices on most things, not so I could gouge my fellow players. That said, if people are willing to pay 20k for a HQ level 35 chest piece, I'm not arguing.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Oh and by your logic pretty much all crafters would have to be banned also then cause people pay them in game currency to do something for them instead of them crafting it themselves.

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If the crafters want you to pay them first so they put something into the MB you can then buy and pay a second time, then i think yes.

The problem here is that a player don't pay another player for his house, but that the other player just demolish his house.
Double cost and the risk that someone else buy the new free plot faster (as an example a friend of the seller).

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Originally Posted by Felis

If the crafters want you to pay them first so they put something into the MB you can then buy and pay a second time, then i think yes.

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I buy something off a crafter for 5.5m. The most I can trade at 1 time is 1m gil. So I have two options.

1. Give the crafter the money up front and risk them running off with the money.
or 2. Get the item first and them risk me running off with the item without paying.

Sounds similar to the housing situation wouldn't you agree?

Ps. Im not saying that this happens a lot im sure very little trades ever happen like that but theres always the chance. Fortunately the GMs are pretty good about this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Also I love how yet another thread is drifting towards the crafters = Satan.

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I know I've brought up crafting a few times, but I just want to clarify, incase it's come off as that, I don't think crafters are bad in the slightest, they deserve the gil they make off their crafts, without a doubt, I just use them as an example of why the house sellers shouldn't be reprimanded =)

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

That said, if people are willing to pay 20k for a HQ level 35 chest piece, I'm not arguing.

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And if someone is willing to spend 5-10 mil extra on top of the market value of a house, who is anyone to argue with it? I've never seen a house go for "triple" the market value, ever, as some people in this thread have tried to imply.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Ps. Im not saying that this happens a lot im sure very little trades ever happen like that but theres always the chance. Fortunately the GMs are pretty good about this stuff.

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That kind of stuff happens quite often, before I transferred off balmung, had an FC offer to buy my medium house for 15m, agreement was to trade half the cost, then I vacate, I never got the other half, I simply cut my losses and learned my lesson, and will never again deal in a situation like that, I get all up front, or no deal on anything from now on. I didn't run and cry to GMs or anything because it was my own fault

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

And if someone is willing to spend 5-10 mil extra on top of the market value of a house, who is anyone to argue with it? I've never seen a house go for "triple" the market value, ever, as some people in this thread have tried to imply.

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Totally agree. Granted I'm on the same server as you are and our housing demand is lower, but still. I've never seen a cost that high. And if someone is willing to pay it, whatever. If not , it won't sell and the price will come down naturally.

There was mention at one point of reselling of plots being a feature included in housing, sure it was said in passing, but still.

27 pages and not even an acknowledgement from a GM, Community Rep, or Dev.

In the meantime GM's in-game are still doing whatever they please on the issue, PF's for selling houses are still there every day when I log on, and everyone's going crazy.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

And if someone is willing to spend 5-10 mil extra on top of the market value of a house, who is anyone to argue with it? I've never seen a house go for "triple" the market value, ever, as some people in this thread have tried to imply.

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I didn't come to back to argue what it right or wrong and done with that part of the thread and I don't know how big Siren server is but cause you haven't seen doesn't mean it don't happen, I seen it more then couple times on Balmung, a small house on Balmung sells from the system for 5 million gil and people have tried to sell as high as 50 million gil which is 10 times the markup but also seen prices any where from 20-50 million even at 20 which a house is more/was more commonly sold is still 4 times above the system price.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I didn't come to back to argue what it right or wrong and done with that part of the thread and I don't know how big Siren server is but cause you haven't seen doesn't mean it don't happen, I seen it more then couple times on Balmung, a small house on Balmung sells from the system for 5 million gil and people have tried to sell as high as 50 million gil which is 10 times the markup but also seen prices any where from 20-50 million even at 20 which a house is more/was more commonly sold is still 4 times above the system price.

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you obviously entirely ignored my next part, in which I stated "before I transferred off balmung" Good job.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

you obviously entirely ignored my next part, in which I stated "before I transferred off balmung" Good job.

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When did you transfer off balmung? If you transferred before the reclaim then you would not seen the prices people on balmung were trying to sell houses they bought up from the reclaim for and yes i did ignore you next part cause regardless if you were on balmung you said you "never" seen any more then triple the price which I made the post about.

I think the only one breaking the ToS is the OP. That many support tickets can only be considered harassment. Seriously, dude, give the GMs a break.

Bump for request of a public statement.

Simply, there should be an initial period in 3.3 where players who don't own an FC or personal house on their account should have first pick of the new wards. Then they can open up the remainder to those who want to park them on their alts and never use them.

It should be like 1 House per Account only, no matter if FC or personal.... (maybe option to share it for fc)

There are plenty of ppl who have really nothing better to do than teleporting from town to town and check if houses are available, like all day.
Someone in my static has same behavior, got like 6-7 houses with using alts.

IMO it's pretty a bad housing system currently.

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Originally Posted by Rikku1987

It should be like 1 House per Account only, no matter if FC or personal.... (maybe option to share it for fc)

There are plenty of ppl who have really nothing better to do than teleporting from town to town and check if houses are available, like all day.
Someone in my static has same behavior, got like 6-7 houses with using alts.

IMO it's pretty a bad housing system currently.

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Yes. If we have account-wide mounts, I don't really see why we can't have a house.

The problem with IG housing is it isn't treated like land would be in RL.

If it could be traded/sold. The price would level out.
VS people paying 2x price for land after the fact because they happen to login at the correct second. post patch...


Another way to handle something this high in demand.

Would be a lotto system.
Your Lotto ticket cost the price of the house. Secure funds. 20X small houses are available in a new ward.
If 100 People want small houses. They put money down for a small house.. 20 tickets are drawn. They walk over to a small house land and pick it.

If the small house locations they dreamed of having isn't available they can pick another locations, Or turn the ticket into GIL and the available house would be drawn for next week.

Excellent News!

Yoshi confirmed at the Live Letter at E3 that selling housing/land for a profit **IS AGAINST THE RULES** & will be punished. They've asked that we report it to GMs if we see it in PF.

When we get the full translation it will cover it in more detail, as is usual, because this is just a direct summary fan translation.

TL;DR The Developers have spoken on behalf of the GMs. It is NOT ALLOWED.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Excellent News!

Yoshi confirmed at the Live Letter at E3 that selling housing/land for a profit **IS AGAINST THE RULES** & will be punished. They've asked that we report it to GMs if we see it in PF.

When we get the full translation it will cover it in more detail, as is usual, because this is just a direct summary fan translation.

TL;DR The Developers have spoken on behalf of the GMs. It is NOT ALLOWED.

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so are they going to implement a system that keeps the amount paid to buy the house and set an option to sell and the price will be automatically set at the price it was purchased in the first place or lower ? if this is not implemented then Yoshi should define the notion of *profit*.

Again a semi answer that leaves yet again more grey zones

He said if they were selling at an exorbitant amount, which is subjective. Please inform peoplr of everything he said. He didn't say no selling at all but not for exorbitant amount of gil. It really didn't solve much. Just those people charging 50 mil for a small.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

so are they going to implement a system that keeps the amount paid to buy the house and set an option to sell and the price will be automatically set at the price it was purchased in the first place or lower ? if this is not implemented then Yoshi should define the notion of *profit*.

Again a semi answer that leaves yet again more grey zones

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They've said several times that they are planning to implement said full housing "estate agency" where you can sell houses etc but for now the rule is that the land shouldn't be sold for profit. I imagine this will be clarified in more detail in the official translation.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

He said if they were selling at an exorbitant amount, which is subjective. Please inform peoplr of everything he said. He didn't say no selling at all but not for exorbitant amount of gil. It really didn't solve much. Just those people charging 50 mil for a small.

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So is almost every rule in ToS. Just let the GMs decide about that.

" You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other Players" and "You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive." works fine, don't you think? Though it's highly subjective.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Yoshi should define the notion of *profit*.

Again a semi answer that leaves yet again more grey zones

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Well i'd say, you buy it 3M and try to sell it 3M and 1 Gil ? that's profit, therefore, that's against the TOS