The Real Problem with Parsers

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

1. What if Helen Keller played this game, you would kick her.

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I have to steal this. It's too priceless.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

How's the old poem go? "To you from failing hands we throw/The torch; be yours to hold it high." Someone else must take up arms against the villainous scroll bar.

Anyway, we both seem to be agreed that parsers would be groovy if they didn't come with a side order of jerks. We just disagree about how many jerks there would be and how many jerks is too many.

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If nobody suppresses the scroll bar, it might grow too large and then start harassing smaller scroll bars for not being long enough.

And yeah, pretty much. Heck, I might even disagree with SE's numbers too. Personally I think that a personal parser (particularly with optional sharing) solves the problem of not being able to gauge one's own performance with less chance of jerkitude happening, so I think that's SE's safest middle ground.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

If it's private, relative performance within context is lost.

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Which may not be necessary, particularly if you're not doubling up classes. If I'm doing 1,200 DPS as a BRD, it doesn't really matter to how good my performance is whether the DRG is doing 1,300 or 1,100. What would matter is what I do in comparison to other BRDs, which could still be ascertained by looking on the forum. If I look at the forum and see other BRDs are doing 1,300, I know there's room for improvement. If I look at the forum and see DRGs are doing 1,500, that doesn't mean I can improve as a BRD.

Even if there's two BRDs in the run, if I'm doing 1,100 and the other's doing 1,000, while I have the context that I'm doing better than the other BRD, I don't have the more important context of what a BRD can actually do if others outside the run are doing 1,300.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

How dare people with disabilities want to experience content in the game they pay for?

Also, the argument isn't restricted to only high-end content. 700 DPS is completely good enough for things like Expert Roulette, but some people would still kick over that.

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The number doesn't matter. It could be 4000 for all I care, but if it's not good enough for the content and causes wipes to happen because of low DPS, it's just simply not good enough. If one happens to find a group that is willing to go the extra mile to get them through, I don't really care what they do then.

In the end disabilities don't matter one bit concerning this whole debate, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

In the end disabilities don't matter one bit concerning this whole debate, if you ask me.

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They do when there are people outright stating they'll kick based on DPS in things like Expert Roulette where the worst that's going to happen if someone's doing lower DPS is that you're going to take a bit longer. Especially when the major point of contention for why SE doesn't officially add in parsers is that exact elitist attitude.

If they're going to hold everyone to the exact same standard and not give a crap about legitimate reasons why someone might be doing lower DPS just because it might take 10 more minutes to do an Expert Roulette, then they're the exact problem that SE expects. And anyone that actually wants parsers in the game should be against those people, not defending them, because they're making it a lot harder to justify adding in parsers.

I swear some people in this thread on some stuff. The whole argument against parsers is like the no child left behind act. No, the higher end community should not dumb down its standards because low end players refuse to get better. I do not know why people are so scared to see their performance numbers. If your numbers are low compared to others then you can say, hey I should work on that. Yes people will shame you. If you trip in real life, a few people will laugh, a few people will come help you up, or do both. That is just how life works. This whole care bear mentality that we should let bad's be bad's is ridiculous. If their weapon ilvl is low (148~160) obviously their damage won't be up to i200~i210 weapon damage, but DPS doing 2.0 DPS at level 60 is beyond unacceptable, I do not care what you say.

They wont add public parsers man, people are very entitled and will expect top notch dps, healing and tanking when they enter a roulette (read; random you get what you get) the roulette were built for people who do not care and need help clearing something.

Not for parse queens.

Just because I had an amazing dragoon duo experience that melted everything in our path doesn't mean this should or will become the standard. Not everyone can reach the bar, that's why there is tome gear and catch up gear, this is a theme park mmo where all your efforts are reset every major patch I.e. every 3 months. I get you want faster runs , those are great and all, but unlike some 10 extra minutes in a game everyone (EVERYONE ) pays for is not too much for me.
If there's so much that needs to be done do those first then roulette, simple.

I play blm and we have to do our max damage but if I get one in roulette that wont? Oh well tough cookie. In a raid environment does it become truly "unacceptable".

"Yes people will shame you. If you trip in real life, a few people will laugh, a few people will come help you up, or do both. That is just how life works."

This is not life, this is game. NOBODY comes here to get shamed for 'tripping' or doing less than some random-person-you-don't-know think you should do.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Yes people will shame you. ... but DPS doing 2.0 DPS at level 60 is beyond unacceptable, I do not care what you say.

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But hey, guess what? Posts like this? Yeah, they're not helping the cause of getting parsers.

If people want to make SE think that they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS, they should act like they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS. They also should avoid making statements like "Hey, you know how SE wants to avoid people getting shamed over their DPS because of parsers? Well, that's totally going to happen, but they should just get over it, gimme parsers."

The saddest part about the pro-parser crowd is that a lot of them act like the very thing the anti-parser sentiment is based around, and admit that the anti-parser sentiment is totally going to come true to at least some degree.

A big part of the pro-parser crowd is the best argument against parsers.

And instead of listening to that and thinking, "Hm, maybe we shouldn't do this, thanks for pointing out that arguments like this are self-defeating," most will just shrug it aside and blame me for being anti-parser.

My favorite part of this thread, is how the anti parser crowd acts like no one uses parsers. Everyone, minus those who can't, that want a parser run a parser. People just want a more accurate parser.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

But hey, guess what? Posts like this? Yeah, they're not helping the cause of getting parsers. If people want to make SE think that they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS, they should act like they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS. They also should avoid making statements like "Hey, you know how SE wants to avoid people getting shamed over their DPS because of parsers? Well, that's totally going to happen, but they should just get over it, gimme parsers."

The saddest part about the pro-parser crowd is that a lot of them act like the very thing the anti-parser sentiment is based around, and admit that the anti-parser sentiment is totally going to come true to at least some degree.

A big part of the pro-parser crowd is the best argument against parsers.

And instead of listening to that and thinking, "Hm, maybe we shouldn't do this, thanks for pointing out that arguments like this are self-defeating," most will just shrug it aside and blame me for being anti-parser.

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Does not matter whether or not SE adds parsers or not, the community already has one. Community as a whole will never be mature enough to handle parsers because well, it's a video game. In any "competitive" environment there will always be situations like this. Good players and bad players will be segregated. In a perfect world, parsers SHOULD help the bad players get better, but we all know for the most part, it makes people sensitive.

My issue with lack of parsers is, its very easy to tell when a healer or tank is bad and people have no problems saying something about that. Soon as we bring up the subject of DPS shaming it becomes taboo. Maining DPS in quite a few games I can honestly say, the DPS community is full of arrogant brats and cry babies who shut down as soon as they are shown they are not as good as they think they are.

So I agree, community is not mature enough to handle something like this, but as I have said we already have one. I personally have no problems teaching people how to play so long as they are willing to learn. Some people just honestly do not know how to play their class, that is fine. But when one has the mentality that they are fine with their low DPS causes problems for the rest of the group having to pick up slack for that person.

I had no idea this was such a touchy subject, 25 pages later >___________________>;;;

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Originally Posted by LathusWHM

I had no idea this was such a touchy subject, 25 pages later >___________________>;;;

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They don't want to be exposed. It's okay. The reckoning is coming.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

They don't want to be exposed. It's okay. The reckoning is coming.

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Boy, I'm a healer. If I don't heal people die. I'm the most exposed of the three roles. What I don't want is the Duty Finder to become even more disrespectful than it already is.

Oh boo hoo i dont want parsers because they provide information. Im a ps4 player, and i'd LOVE a parser. Why? because i can use it to learn. to better myself. because it'd encourage growth. Because I'd like to get better rather than sit there in blissful unaware mediocrity. But no, I'm the weird one in our society. Just add in a personal parse that only shows your own numbers. since its against tos for a pc player to use a parse but they turn a blind eye to it as long as the player doesnt advertise it or isnt a jerk with it. But us console players who want to better our play, what do we get? we get to ask a pc friend if they have one to tell us our numbers. but that also violates the tos. so pc players can use these without punishment so long as they arent elitist jerks and dont advertise it. They use them in streams. and videos. but us console players? dark ages.

Parsers exist, but only for some of the player base. Everyone should have access to them in the interest of fairness.

Just give us personal parsers?? It'd literally create 0 problems in DF. Maybe have an option for the party leader to see everyone's numbers. (This would mostly be for statics)

Aiselia... You're being an idiot. You're staunchly defending your side of the argument, while adding absolutely nothing to that argument. You've given no good reasons why parsers are bad. You just don't like them, and refuse to accept other people liking them.
There isn't even anyone attacking parsers anymore. This entire topic has turned into you saying they're bad, and everyone else telling you why you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

Aiselia... You're being an idiot. You're staunchly defending your side of the argument, while adding absolutely nothing to that argument. You've given no good reasons why parsers are bad. You just don't like them, and refuse to accept other people liking them.
There isn't even anyone attacking parsers anymore. This entire topic has turned into you saying they're bad, and everyone else telling you why you're wrong.

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Don't listen to her. Why must you try to take away my new favorite thread?

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

You've given no good reasons why parsers are bad.

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That's probably because I've never said that parsers are bad.

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This entire topic has turned into you saying they're bad

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Please quote where I said they were bad. You can start from the post where I specifically agreed with Viridiana that we (me and Viridiana) were in agreement that parsers are fine if they don't come with jerks tagging alongside them, and work backwards from there.

I'll save you time. I've never said that parsers themselves are bad. I've said that other games have shown that there's plenty of elitism focused on them. I've said that SE's concern is that the same elitism will blossom from officially allowing or putting in parsers and that many of the pro-parser side simply prove that fear to be accurate, and that if they truly want parsers to be added, they should be trying to convince SE that they ARE mature enough to handle them, and not outright state that they'd totally kick people for not being up to their standards even if they're still capable of clearing just because it'll take them half an hour to clear an Expert Roulette instead of 20 minutes. I've said that if people want SE to reconsider their position on parsers, telling them simply that they're wrong isn't going to win them over. This isn't Family Guy, you can't just say "Come ooooon" and have them agree.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

Do you know why I continued that debate with Viridiana for so long? Because unlike people like you, Viridiana actually understood my actual position, even if it's because I specifically stated it in another thread, and didn't operate under the misconception that "If you're not 100% with me, you're 100% against me."

So tell me again how I'm being an idiot for saying things I've never said. Because if you actually pay attention, if people bothered to take my advice and STOP outright stating that they'll completely be the elitists that SE doesn't want them to be, there MIGHT be a better chance at getting parsers added because they would stop proving SE right.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

... if people bothered to take my advice and STOP outright stating that they'll completely be the elitists that SE doesn't want them to be, there MIGHT be a better chance at getting parsers added because they would stop proving SE right.

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Or people like you could stop coming into these threads with fear-mongering nonsense, (by claiming suddenly more "good players" would become much more aggressive), to cause unneeded dispute over a tool that would be valuable in helping DPS players improve ten-fold. Then we could have a thread full of plenty of positive support for parsers. That would be much more effective at getting them in-game.

he (yoshi-p) hinted at the "in game" parser being pretty much "personal". its going to be a target dummy that records your DPS pretty much. It is there for training purposes, and as such is a tool to help you improve. (specially nice for console players imo)

As some have pointed out, the parser is just a tool ... it can just be bad when the "parser" is also a tool :P

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

So tell me again how I'm being an idiot for saying things I've never said. Because if you actually pay attention, if people bothered to take my advice and STOP outright stating that they'll completely be the elitists that SE doesn't want them to be, there MIGHT be a better chance at getting parsers added because they would stop proving SE right.

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Thing is these people you mention would be 'elitists' with or without one. Adding in an official parser would wake some up to how they're holding back the other 3 or 7 players also paying for a sub. Or this game can end up like WoW with that video someone posted of content being so watered down and easily accessed that apathy towards endgame communities and caring to do one's best was rampant.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Or people like you could stop coming into these threads with fear-mongering nonsense, (by claiming suddenly more "good players" would become much more aggressive), to cause unneeded dispute over a tool that would be valuable in helping DPS players improve ten-fold. Then we could have a thread full of plenty of positive support for parsers. That would be much more effective at getting them in-game.

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This.

Before I knew about the existence of parsers, I was unaware of how poorly I performed in the majority of content. After finding out what my numbers were, I asked others if they were good. They said they weren't and I needed to step my game up since I was doing raid content (SCoB when it was relevant, to be exact). After looking around for guides and tips, I saw a dramatic increase in my DPS and the parsers reflected that.

Having a detailed measurement of my DPS and asking for counsel from the community not only served to show me where I was, but offered the information and wake-up call I needed as a DPS. It pushed me to become a better player and I am thankful for it. Without being privy to this information, I probably would have continued to be ignorant of how shoddily I performed back in the day. Now that I have the information, all that remains is getting a parser so I don't have to ask my PC friends to open theirs up just to find out if I'm staying on track or not.

It's amazing how such information can be so beneficial to a player and offer incentive to become better, especially for those who constantly seek improvement or ways to not only increase their numbers but aim for faster clear times. If a parser can offer such benefits, especially when SE is making content that has DPS checks, it would be more of a boon for everyone instead of a bane being abused by jerks.

The real problem with parsers is a very accurate title for this thread.

I don't get it. A bad tank can see that they're a bad tank when they lose aggro and die. A bad healer can see that they're a bad healer when parties start dying from unavoidable damage. But don't you dare ever try to imply that DPS should be able to tell when they're bad too, because that might offend them. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.

I may have missed it, but in 27 pages of comments, I haven't seen anyone offer up this point.

A lot of people appear to think they might come in for abuse if a parser was introduced. The easiest way to allay this fear is to do a respectable amount of dps. Not that difficult is it. Only if your numbers are shockingly poor is anyone likely to (justifiably) point it out. And I do only mean very low dps, I'm sure most people are aware there is some variance in how much dps each role can do, depending on encounter/rng (a good example being on A4 if you're the person quarantined)

I honestly don't know why we don't just get an in-game parser, and you can elect to have it either PUBLIC, PRIVATE or OFF.

PUBLIC the whole party can see.
PRIVATE only you can see.
OFF you don't give a rat's ass about number and will continue to blindly mill about doing your business.

And then make it so that pre-made's can choose to ONLY accept people that have their parser set to PUBLIC if they so wish.

I don't see how this wouldn't accommodate everyone, however ridiculous I personally may feel their opinions are

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Originally Posted by Isala

I don't get it. A bad tank can see that they're a bad tank when they lose aggro and die. A bad healer can see that they're a bad healer when parties start dying from unavoidable damage. But don't you dare ever try to imply that DPS should be able to tell when they're bad too, because that might offend them. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.

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Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. For some reason people feel DPS deserve to be the blindspot where bad play can exist because they are the "for fun" Classes/Jobs I guess? I'd love to see more DPS checks in regular dungeon content (sprinkle them amongst the dungeon bosses all the way from 15-60 so that it's a constant thing). Healers and Tanks have very obvious fail-states (people dying due to unhealed damage & losing aggro constantly/dying due to tankbusters respectively) but DPS aren't given much feedback aside from "the thing died fast enough." Scaling DPS checks (still on the easy side, naturally) in regular dungeons would encourage people to push themselves more naturally than just letting them hit a wall at end game content.

This wouldn't work, however, unless there was a way to measure personal DPS. A personal parser I feel has no (or at least not nearly enough) downsides, it's when it is public that it becomes A Thing (TM) and even then, this community isn't toxic enough that I'd be too concerned about it.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. For some reason people feel DPS deserve to be the blindspot where bad play can exist because they are the "for fun" Classes/Jobs I guess? I'd love to see more DPS checks in regular dungeon content (sprinkle them amongst the dungeon bosses all the way from 15-60 so that it's a constant thing). Healers and Tanks have very obvious fail-states (people dying due to unhealed damage & losing aggro constantly/dying due to tankbusters respectively) but DPS aren't given much feedback aside from "the thing died fast enough." Scaling DPS checks (still on the easy side, naturally) in regular dungeons would encourage people to push themselves more naturally than just letting them hit a wall at end game content.

This wouldn't work, however, unless there was a way to measure personal DPS. A personal parser I feel has no (or at least not nearly enough) downsides, it's when it is public that it becomes A Thing (TM) and even then, this community isn't toxic enough that I'd be too concerned about it.

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They'd just nerf it eventually, when everyone complains its too difficult - a la Amdapor keep Demon Wall. Man I loved that fight back in 2.0, it'd actually make DF groups disband because they couldn't even complete it. A pretty neat suggestion I saw someone write one time was have an encounter warp the dps to their own quadrant and give them an "ifrit nail" they need to dps down or else that dps would die. It'd very clearly show who needs some work, without a parser.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

They don't want to be exposed. It's okay. The reckoning is coming.

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I think by accident, I actually exposed the TRUE problem behind parsers based on how this thread has exploded with yin/yangs


/panic

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Originally Posted by La_Bluegirl

They'd just nerf it eventually, when everyone complains its too difficult - a la Amdapor keep Demon Wall. Man I loved that fight back in 2.0, it'd actually make DF groups disband because they couldn't even complete it. A pretty neat suggestion I saw someone write one time was have an encounter warp the dps to their own quadrant and give them an "ifrit nail" they need to dps down or else that dps would die. It'd very clearly show who needs some work, without a parser.

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The reason it was nerfed in the first place was because by the time Ampador came around you were barely exposed to DPS checks at all. If they made it more of a regular/expected thing, people would change accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

people like you

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People like me? You mean people like me who want a personal parser so people can improve but don't see how the subjective benefits of a party parser objectively outweigh what SE expects will happen?

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by claiming suddenly more "good players" would become much more aggressive

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I don't have to claim that. The pro-parser side already proves it by saying that they'd totally take people to task over low DPS even in content that doesn't have DPS checks at all. Regardless, that's not my claim. That's SE's fear. It's irrelevant if I make that claim because you still have to prove SE wrong. If I stayed out of this thread completely? Yeah, SE would still think the same thing.

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to cause unneeded dispute

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Who says it's unneeded? Remember, SE already has the stance that they don't want people to turn into mouthy jerks if they let them talk about others' DPS. If you want to try to help get parsers, you've got to somehow convince them that they're wrong. Which means dispute is absolutely needed. I'd also put forward that it's a litmus test for their own fears. If people can't even handle talking ABOUT parsers without resorting to personal attacks, why should SE expect that they can handle USING parsers without personal attacks?

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a tool that would be valuable in helping DPS players improve ten-fold.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

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I can quote it again if you like. I'm not against people having a tool to improve their DPS. I'm against people using said tool to be jerks.

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Then we could have a thread full of plenty of positive support for parsers.

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Coming from people who completely admit that they'll be the people that SE doesn't want?

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Thing is these people you mention would be 'elitists' with or without one.

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And they're not allowed to talk about numbers now, which holds back their elitism. Seems like most people just want to be able to let that elitism out. It's a pretty poor argument for parsers for people to say they're completely going to act how SE fears.

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Adding in an official parser would wake some up to how they're holding back the other 3 or 7 players also paying for a sub.

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Which a personal parser can completely do, which I've already said repeatedly I'm absolutely fine with and is a great middle ground for SE because it lets people see their DPS to improve but prevents people from seeing others' DPS to be the elitists SE doesn't want them to be.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

The easiest way to allay this fear is to do a respectable amount of dps.

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Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

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Probably somewhere in the middle :P Really, elitists expecting perfection in all content are extremely rare. They're around, but rare. People do expect something higher than 300 dps though.

Most "elitists" are aware that things like mechanics, ilvl, different jobs, etc, can all have a significant effect on dps. So very few people will expect 1200+ in dungeons/primals. But really regardless of ilvl, job, mechanics, skill, or whatever, people should be able to pull about 600-700 dps on a boss. I think that would be closer to the expectation than perfection would.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

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It is down to each individual's personal judgment. What is respectable to me may not be respectable to someone else, and vice versa. Exactly the same way, at present, my level of tolerance in doing a duty, may be very different to what someone else will tolerate.

Apologies if I have not addressed your point, but I don't really understand the point you are making.

I would be interested in your opinion of what I suggested for a parser with different settings.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

It is down to each individual's personal judgment. What is respectable to me may not be respectable to someone else, and vice versa. Exactly the same way, at present, my level of tolerance in doing a duty, may be very different to what someone else will tolerate.

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But then that doesn't necessarily allay any fears at all, does it? It still puts the power in the hands of the elitists to decide what's acceptable.

I mean, bear in mind that I'm not talking about high end content where DPS really is super important or you're simply not finishing it. I'm talking about things like Expert Roulette where people will demand a certain level of DPS or kick even if the only downside to having lower DPS than that is the run takes 10 minutes longer.

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I would be interested in your opinion of what I suggested for a parser with different settings.

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If they make a rule saying you're not allowed to demand public settings or kick in duty finder and it's an actionable offence to do such, or possibly just make it private-only in DF, I think it'd work. It'd cement more of the idea that DF is for people who don't care or are willing to take the risk that not everyone in the run will be optimal and PF/premades are better for people who want control over what they're getting.

I also put forth the idea in another thread that they'd be personal parsers, period, but you could have a "Share to:" button to share with specific people and "Share to Party" button which shares to your current party. That way, you've got more control over who actually sees it and if wipes happen which are DPS check wipes rather than simply mechanic wipes, you could either have a designated person be the one to share things to or just simply share to the party. And, I mean, if you fail a DPS check and 3 DPS share theirs and they're all fine and the last refuses, you could probably guess where the problem lies, and not only that, but you know that if the person refuses to share it when everyone else is shown to be good and the assumption is that it's because the person is embarrassed by it, it's likely the person is obstinately refusing to improve, which means they're not likely to accept help. If someone shares it and it's low but is willing to accept tips on rotations, then they can be helped. It makes it that much simpler to figure out who's low because they just need help and who's low because they outright refuse to think they need to get better.

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Originally Posted by braneri1

There is no problem with parsers. The problem is with people refusing to have any sort of personal accountability.

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This reminds me of one of my favorite memes... The little girl screaming WE'RE PLAYING A GAME IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FUN

Just be sure the issue of personal accountability is only applied when needed, not when convenient.

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Originally Posted by spelley

The reason it was nerfed in the first place was because by the time Ampador came around you were barely exposed to DPS checks at all. If they made it more of a regular/expected thing, people would change accordingly.

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You're giving people way too much credit.

I also like how the meaning of 'elitist' has been distorted and seems to just mean 'someone who is capable' on here...

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Originally Posted by Elazu

I also like how the meaning of 'elitist' has been distorted and seems to just mean 'someone who is capable' on here...

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Seemingly only among the people who think that anyone using the word "elitist" is broadly talking about everyone who's capable, rather than considering that they may just literally mean elitists.

The thing that many are forgetting is that parsers are already widely in use. Widely. There's two main ones out there that aren't official, and people are using them. SE can either stick their heads in the sand and pretend that people aren't already parsing dps, or they can accept that this is a tool that is going to be used regardless of what they want and obsolete it by making something official and available to EVERYONE to use. Either way, you can't escape jerks who are going to kick you from their parties. You just might not know for certain the reason why you were kicked.

People that care about using parsers are the people already using parsers.

Oh wait, except for PS3 and PS4 players. While I will be the first to laugh at those plebs (I know, its not their fault...but really, mmo on a console?), I do think they should also have the chance to improve.

And with a worthless combat tracker and no real ingame feedback it makes sense that addon support should be added soon which was promised and should've been here by now grrr will also include some sort of dps tracker.

If only to put those console users in their place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

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To be fair, I don't think anyone (even the most elitist jerk) is demanding perfection. I mean, I've never seen any reports of people being kicked for not eating HQ DPS food and using HQ Draco pots in DF. Not even in Ravana PF (well, usually food there in the early days).