Tank adjustments we can agree on?

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10-19-2015, 09:44 AM
Seku

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawker

What if DRKs get an oGCD defensive ability like Sheltron that it is a guaranteed Parry on the next attack but let's say... on a 45-sec cooldown?? That will make their damage down debuff more reliable, is it not?

As for PLDs, would it be too much to ask for Fight of Flight to be up 50% of the time. If its cooldown was cut to 60 secs, then it's as good as Maim or Darkside. While Darkside is gated by MP management, and Maim is gated by a combo, I guess ours will be just a click/button pres away since our main selling point is simplicity.

WARs? Do they really need more buffs? I guess I would ask for a longer Inner Beast duration... 5 seconds, for me is too short. :D

With that suggestion you've just made every run WAR+DRK unless SE fixes PLD's utility problem, as that would give DRK the ability to have reprisal up in it's rotations of defensive CD's as well as the promised parry.
10-19-2015, 10:08 AM
rawker

If you check my PLD suggestion, I suggested that FoF cooldown drop to 60 secs, which makes it up for 50% of the time. Half of 30% is 15% which is like Maim and Darkside, no?
10-20-2015, 06:07 AM
eagledorf

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawker

If you check my PLD suggestion, I suggested that FoF cooldown drop to 60 secs, which makes it up for 50% of the time. Half of 30% is 15% which is like Maim and Darkside, no?

No, FoF is basically PLD's version of Berserk or Blood Weapon. PLD does not have a Maim or Darkside, they have a DPS stance and a tank stance that are mutually exclusive.

Really PLD and DRK OT DPS in a vacuum aren't (that) poorly balanced. The problem is that DRK gains potency when they take damage out of Grit from Reprisal and from Blood Price while PLD no longer has that sort of mechanic due to the failure to update Shield Swipe potency with 3.0. You could make Shield Swipe and Reprisal relatively balanced, but I think it would be literally impossible to balance around Blood Price for all situations (either you'll be underpowered if you don't take damage or overpowered if you do).

It used to be:
PLD gains potency from Shield Swipe
WAR gains potency from Vengeance

Now it's:
DRK gains potency from Reprisal and Blood Price
WAR gains potency from Vengeance
PLD loses potency by tanking

WAR's overall DPS is a simpler problem. Tank stances are also badly messed up, but that's not even a problem right now since you don't use them at all.
10-20-2015, 07:17 AM
Seku

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawker

If you check my PLD suggestion, I suggested that FoF cooldown drop to 60 secs, which makes it up for 50% of the time. Half of 30% is 15% which is like Maim and Darkside, no?

Unless the damage is considerably higher than DRK it's not going to do much (not a math person). You've given DRK a on demand -damage dealt on physical fights and the cool down they would need to allow them to basically skip over of having no CD's for physical tank busters, something that some PLD's struggle with in magical fights at this point in time.

Pld's problems stem beyond just it's damage it also has to deal with it's lack of utility as well. If you increased PLD's damage and hate mods only now you're only getting DRK = magic fights and PLD = physical fights. If you give DRK the cool downs you're mentioning they have better utility and would be able to tank anything. More so if Raid damage continues to be magical damage since DRK also replaces monk until a new DPS is introduced that benefits from blunt resistance down.
10-20-2015, 09:21 AM
Linkan

The biggest adjustment to DRK would be allowing me to hold my Greatsword properly while I run.
10-21-2015, 01:18 AM
Ralvenom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkan

The biggest adjustment to DRK would be allowing me to hold my Greatsword properly while I run.

Actually, the animation for running with a big weapon is pretty much accurate. Imagine holding a 75 pound sword. Now imagine running with it. Yes, it's going to look/feel awkward. Ideally, when running, one would put away a greatsword or greataxe.
10-21-2015, 05:41 AM
Duelle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust

Right but its so bloody boring to have 3 classes that are the same with different names for the same thing.

How are 3 classes with different gameplay and different mechanics while getting the same results (in other words, being actually balanced with each other) "boring"? The other tanks being equal to you in damage/mitigation/utility is a good thing and doesn't affect you much. It's not like your gameplay is going to get changed to match that of the other two tanks. WAR would still keep their Wrath stacks, PLD would still be enmity attacks and defensive cooldowns, and DRK would still heavily rely on Dark Arts.

Quote:

Paladin should have the damage they have now with much greater utility. Stronger heals that can support group healing and maybe some interesting buffs.

We're there to take damage, not to do the healer's job for them.
10-21-2015, 06:55 AM
Seku

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Actually, the animation for running with a big weapon is pretty much accurate. Imagine holding a 75 pound sword. Now imagine running with it. Yes, it's going to look/feel awkward. Ideally, when running, one would put away a greatsword or greataxe.

Nothing to do with the topic or game, but most great swords actually only weighed like 4-10 pounds....and normally probably were carried by hand or by wagon or horse ....but it doesn't really matter I love my unrealistic fantasy games with midgets that pop out meteors...sexy cat pixel chicks....and...whatever the new race that is suppose to be with their dried scabs on their faces.
10-21-2015, 08:21 AM
eagledorf

If we're talking about running animations, ACN is pretty awkward as well. Well, all the sprint animations end up pretty bad if you unsheathe your weapon.
10-22-2015, 12:21 AM
Ralvenom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seku

Nothing to do with the topic or game, but most great swords actually only weighed like 4-10 pounds....and normally probably were carried by hand or by wagon or horse ....but it doesn't really matter I love my unrealistic fantasy games with midgets that pop out meteors...sexy cat pixel chicks....and...whatever the new race that is suppose to be with their dried scabs on their faces.

Swords the size or proportion of what we have is this game would weigh more than 10 pounds. Some of the swords are as wide as the body of an Elezen. There's no way those swords aren't like 35 pounds. Same with many of the axes in this game.
10-22-2015, 01:00 AM
rawker

I just had a silly idea i'd still throw out here. What if DRK's delirium blade has an additional mdef down while PLD's RoH had def down debuff? That would make DRK+PLD viable tank duo, right?
10-22-2015, 09:44 AM
Brannigan

Monsters don't have defense, but if you went the other way (vuln up) then it becomes too strong for full party dps.
10-22-2015, 10:24 AM
rawker

SE can tweak it so that the Physical/Magical Vulnerability Up debuff is at an acceptable level.
10-24-2015, 04:46 AM
eagledorf

Personally, I don't think tanks should have that kind of utility. You end up juggling people around to optimize and it's a pain in the butt (you'll end up making decisions about who tanks what based on which DPS it's easier for rather than which tank is better for what). I don't think there's any way you could make it not overpowered anyway.

Type-specific DPS buffs on tanks would be annoying. It's already bad enough with MCH auto-buffing physical damage and BRD buffing magic damage more and longer and buffing healer damage with RoD and BRD being buffed less than MCH is by having a DRG in the party and...

It's ok because MCH and BRD are fairly balanced all around and are ranged, but adding tanks to the mix...that would be awful.
10-24-2015, 11:35 AM
rawker

With my suggestion, a tank can focus more on tanking and getting beefier(since there are people who actually like to be damage sponges) without hurting the raid's overall dps and still making the tight dps checks that we might still get.
10-24-2015, 03:09 PM
Shurrikhan

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagledorf

Personally, I don't think tanks should have that kind of utility. You end up juggling people around to optimize and it's a pain in the butt (you'll end up making decisions about who tanks what based on which DPS it's easier for rather than which tank is better for what). I don't think there's any way you could make it not overpowered anyway.

Type-specific DPS buffs on tanks would be annoying. It's already bad enough with MCH auto-buffing physical damage and BRD buffing magic damage more and longer and buffing healer damage with RoD and BRD being buffed less than MCH is by having a DRG in the party and...

It's ok because MCH and BRD are fairly balanced all around and are ranged, but adding tanks to the mix...that would be awful.

This. I like that WAR can assist the dps of other tanks, but I'm okay with NIN/ROG sharing type with a tank-granted DPS-improving debuff only because it's something of a specialist class. Throwing additional DPS-improving debuff types onto each would just make stacking pure casters or pure physical even more lucrative, at which point either the Def-down PLD suggestion or mDef-down DRK suggestion would go to waste. It's bad enough that Foe and Army go to waste as much as they do on a job design penalized just for having those support options in their repertoire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawker

With my suggestion, a tank can focus more on tanking and getting beefier(since there are people who actually like to be damage sponges) without hurting the raid's overall dps and still making the tight dps checks that we might still get.

That's honestly my other issue with this. Bringing a tank should be a real decision, imo, especially when, say, overgearing content. The enemy-manipulation and reduced healing is already enough to warrant their presence evenly with a dps. The only time I'd want to see a 4-man with multiple tanks be viable is if no-tanking were also viable, and both of those shifts would require more underlying changes than their development costs are worth for now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Actually, the animation for running with a big weapon is pretty much accurate. Imagine holding a 75 pound sword. Now imagine running with it. Yes, it's going to look/feel awkward. Ideally, when running, one would put away a greatsword or greataxe.

*Imagining someone running with a buster blade held out in front of them Cloud-style* = *Imagining them chasing their sword in a poor attempt to keep the tip from falling*

Ever tried longsword fencing? People hang out in Hengen (Hanging Guard) at least as often as a simple middle stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust

Paladin should have the damage they have now with much greater utility. Stronger heals that can support group healing and maybe some interesting buffs. That should be the trade off to allow healers an easier time and give them freedom to buff and DPS.

The problem with this is the problem with any other stat race -- diminishing relative value. That, and 'true tank' stats (e.g. fending accs) provide nothing by which to improve Clemency, nor is the ability itself reliable or weavable enough to possibly serve those ends in its current state. It's more a problem of design than power.
10-25-2015, 11:04 PM
eagledorf

Looks like PLD will be getting a TP adjustment.

Finally. Good thing it only took SE months to figure out a problem that was obvious to players at the preview stage of Heavensward's release (no, I'm not exaggerating. That JP thread I made about TP in my sig is from before 3.0 dropped when skill details first started coming out). At least they fixed that nasty potential Blood Weapon TP drain in the testing phase right? Oh wait...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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