The harp is a lie.

Bah, I was gonna keep this in my thread, but this seems to be where the real conversations at, so:

I COME BEARING GIFTS

Famitsu "Harp Bow" (collapsed and expanded) vs. actual in-game example of a harp.

Arguments that no longer make sense:

"It cannot possibly be a bow-harp because _________________

• it doesn't have enough strings."
• it wouldn't resonate in that shape."
• the strings are too thick."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I'm gonna take the "wait, try and see" approach rather than the "I already know what's gonna happen" approach when it comes to jobs. I'm excited for them, especially after that cover.

---

The problem I see with the "Wait and See" approach is this game is already on thin ice. They don't really have the luxury of releasing any more bombs.

If they release the job system and it is anything less than spectacular then they wasted months of time and who knows how much money, on a game that has already wasted years and millions of dollars.

I am still waiting to see how it turns out... the announcements for change aren't the things that will make me quit. But as it is I've spent more time arguing on forums about this game than playing it, because it is largely more engaging to do so.

The potential in a job system working in correlation with the armory system are enormous. You can see that in the ideas that other forum goers have brought forth, potential for content, potential for character growth, potential for a more emotional connection between the players and their characters...

and SE seems to have largely ignored most of that potential.

You can almost hear the anxiety in Job Discussion posts... we want jobs to be awesome... And I know that I for one am not completely convinced they will be.

I know I am working with alot of speculation, but we don't really have much else to run with, and when I speculate on things my natural instinct is to look for where it can go wrong... I see alot of places this system can go wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Travesty

How, IN ANY WAY, does that make sense? Firing an arrow to play an instrument is absurd.

The whole concept of sticking an instrument onto a bow to make a Bard is absurd. I mean hell, if we're gonna do that, how bout we make Pugilist a Samurai. We can give him weapons where 1 of the knuckles is a hilt, and the other is a blade, and when he holds them together JUST RIGHT, they TRANSFORM into a katana! Woo!

No. The idea is ridiculous, just like a transformable instrument-bow.

---

Yeah, it's just like a bunch of guys in hooded robes flailing a stick around can make all your serious wounds suddenly vanish. Just what kind of game is this anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The problem I see with the "Wait and See" approach is this game is already on thin ice. They don't really have the luxury of releasing any more bombs.

If they release the job system and it is anything less than spectacular then they wasted months of time and who knows how much money, on a game that has already wasted years and millions of dollars.

I am still waiting to see how it turns out... the announcements for change aren't the things that will make me quit. But as it is I've spent more time arguing on forums about this game than playing it, because it is largely more engaging to do so.

The potential in a job system working in correlation with the armory system are enormous. You can see that in the ideas that other forum goers have brought forth, potential for content, potential for character growth, potential for a more emotional connection between the players and their characters...

and SE seems to have largely ignored most of that potential.

You can almost hear the anxiety in Job Discussion posts... we want jobs to be awesome... And I know that I for one am not completely convinced they will be.

I know I am working with alot of speculation, but we don't really have much else to run with, and when I speculate on things my natural instinct is to look for where it can go wrong... I see alot of places this system can go wrong.

---

There is so very little known about the Job System right now that seeing posts of people so convinced it will destroy the Armoury system just does not make sense to me.

SE is well aware the game is on thin ice. Bickering on about whether or not their Job system will destroy the Armoury system with what little we know is an exercise in futility.

I support the notion of providing creative ideas as to how the Job system can be awesome alongside the Armoury system. People excited about it should and would be doing that.

Hopeless negativity is what I ignore. That hopeless negativity is often times combined with an unyielding sense of foresight that no one forum poster can convince otherwise.

So in the end, I will simply wait and see instead of attempt to convince people the Job system will destroy or compliment the Armoury system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Bah, I was gonna keep this in my thread, but this seems to be where the real conversations at, so:

I COME BEARING GIFTS

Famitsu "Harp Bow" (collapsed and expanded) vs. actual in-game example of a harp.

Arguments that no longer make sense:

"It cannot possibly be a bow-harp because _________________

• it doesn't have enough strings."
• it wouldn't resonate in that shape."
• the strings are too thick."

---

Haha, very cool! :) I personally hope Archer becomes Bard, that is such an interesting spin and gives them something to do besides just singing. Also, if Bards become the puller b*tch for the party again, having ranged attacks like that would really come in handy! :)

I always wanted to give Corsair a shot but never got around to it, a ranged attacking class with buffs always seemed interesting to me, if this is how Bard works out, it will be my new main for sure!

Ok... the fantasy card only goes so far. All the best fantasy worlds still have rules they need to follow. Super awkward magic bow/harps is a bit much to cover up with "It's make believe!"

May as well give us Rat-Flails.

P.S. the linked site contains Colorful Language.

I will admit that a good portion of my negativity is based on speculation, but I am not pulling that speculation out of thin air. My speculation is based on actual things Yoshida has said in regards to the job system. I can take all my opinions and speculations point by point with reference to Yoshi's comments if you like.

I won't apologize for my negative view though. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. And to everyone who is intolerant of any negativity on these forums you are not being realistic. If you want things to get better it doesn't happen by waiting and seeing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nikita

I personally hope Archer becomes Bard

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Honestly, I wanted to let this play out for a while longer before I said anything other than "It would be interesting!" because being noncommittal before a release is usually better... but...

I totally agree with you, and if ARC evolves into a combat minstrel, I'd be ecstatic.

THERE, I SAID IT.

Tactically, bard was indispensable, but let's forget the game mechanics for a minute, since we're talking about how much "sense" it would make instead of how "fun" it would be.

Bard pissed me off.

WE all brought weapons, items, food, and balls to take on the enemy - and you're only going to set the mood music? Sure, it gets us revved up. We fight faster, hit harder, etc, etc, etc. But how about after you set the morale, you get it on this a little bit.

Back us up, Bard!
No cures? ... Fine, do some dam-- I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE SCARED!
FINE. Stay back there. Get a bow.

See? Makes perfect sense. Barcher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Yeah, it's just like a bunch of guys in hooded robes flailing a stick around can make all your serious wounds suddenly vanish. Just what kind of game is this anyway?

---

I don't mean to be rude, but that's a crappy point, honestly.

Magic and mages wielding wands are an accepted, longstanding, and actually pretty logical staple of Final Fantasy and the fantasy genre in general. Bow-harps and bard-archers are not, in the slightest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Travesty

I don't mean to be rude, but that's a crappy point, honestly.

Magic and mages wielding wands are an accepted, longstanding, and actually pretty logical staple of Final Fantasy and the fantasy genre in general. Bow-harps and bard-archers are not, in the slightest.

---

Honestly, I thought it was a fantastic point. :P Throughout the Final Fantasy series we encounter new worlds, monsters, stories, characters, and even jobs. I really don't see how this can seem outlandish at all, especially in this ever-expanding franchise. If they added bow harps this time around, I personally would welcome it. I already wanted to play Bard, but if they do end up turning out this way, I think I would have even more fun playing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I will admit that a good portion of my negativity is based on speculation, but I am not pulling that speculation out of thin air. My speculation is based on actual things Yoshida has said in regards to the job system. I can take all my opinions and speculations point by point with reference to Yoshi's comments if you like.

I won't apologize for my negative view though. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. And to everyone who is intolerant of any negativity on these forums you are not being realistic. If you want things to get better it doesn't happen by waiting and seeing.

---

I wasn't targeting you with that Ferth. Looking back though I understand why it may seem that way. I don't expect an apology from a negative view or anything of the sort. I don't expect anything really.

I'm perfectly fine with posts that may be negative in nature but actually bring up a solid argument as opposed to posts that say "...and then this system will fail and become useless, and then that will be destroyed and eventually the sky will fall on Eorzea." See what i mean by an unyielding sense of foresight?

I can respect a post that points out possible flaws and backs it up. Forget about my respect, it will clearly be something useful for the community reps to read and pass on to the devs unlike typical Armageddon posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Travesty

I don't mean to be rude, but that's a crappy point, honestly.

Magic and mages wielding wands are an accepted, longstanding, and actually pretty logical staple of Final Fantasy and the fantasy genre in general. Bow-harps and bard-archers are not, in the slightest.

---

Different is bad!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nikita

Honestly, I thought it was a fantastic point. :P Throughout the Final Fantasy series we encounter new worlds, monsters, stories, characters, and even jobs. I really don't see how this can seem outlandish at all, especially in this ever-expanding franchise. If they added bow harps this time around, I personally would welcome it. I already wanted to play Bard, but if they do end up turning out this way, I think I would have even more fun playing it.

---

Name one job in the final fantasy world, that isn't a jack-of-all-trades job, that combines 2 things from so far on the opposite ends of the spectrum as bard and archer? They are categorically different. It's like a ninja white mage. Or a summoner theif.

In all honesty I would be far more forgiving of the Archer/Bard if they didn't give us this frustratingly bad transforming bow. If archers could equip an instrument off hand and switch between using a bow and an instrument I would not be as angry as I am.

This contraption is unforgivably awkward and pointless... Even with anonymoose's diagram... There is no conceivable reason anyone who understood the physics behind bows... and the physics behind harps... would ever create an item like this.

And I'm sorry but Magical Fantasy Land doesn't excuse bad design. I'd wager Akihiko Yoshida has diagrams on functionality for all the other devices and contraptions he's designed for this game.

Uh, It's confirmed by Bayohne that it is a bow that "transforms". He said so in response to the speculation about the harp, which seems to confirm that it indeed "transforms" into a harp.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post349656

I don't really see where there's room for speculation, it was pretty much confirmed by a community rep.

Edit: Note, this is in response to the OP, I haven't read the entire thread, so not sure if anybody else brought this post up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Different is bad!

---

No, stupid and silly is bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

In all honesty I would be far more forgiving of the Archer/Bard if they didn't give us this frustratingly bad transforming bow. If archers could equip an instrument off hand and switch between using a bow and an instrument I would not be as angry as I am.

This contraption is unforgivably awkward and pointless... Even with anonymoose's diagram... There is no conceivable reason anyone who understood the physics behind bows... and the physics behind harps... would ever create an item like this.

And I'm sorry but Magical Fantasy Land doesn't excuse bad design. I'd wager Akihiko Yoshida has diagrams on functionality for all the other devices and contraptions he's designed for this game.

---

I can agree with the lyre/bow design being weak. They did point out that it is concept art and not final.

I'm not against a transforming lyre/bow. In fact I welcome it. That being said I would definitely appreciate a more interesting design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Travesty

No, stupid and silly is bad.

---

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

---

You're welcome. I'm just happy it's clearly shared by many.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travesty

You're welcome. I'm just happy it's clearly shared by many.

---

As is mine!

Aren't opinions just wonderful?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

As is mine!

Aren't opinions just wonderful!

---

Indeed they are.

In all seriousness though, it seems to me there are far fewer people excited about bow-harp than questioning it. I'm glad you're excited, but I don't think you're the majority.

The idea of a bow that bends, folds or moves in any way counter to it's primary function as a bow almost seems sacrilegious to me. And it would have to be designed extremely well before I'd be willing to accept it.

If they are going to play with dual function items I'd rather they did it with something else. Of course that's purely a personal opinion.

I still do think that the Archer to Bard decision is awkward at best, not because I don't think it will work but because I think they can find a way to bring bards into play in a much better fashion.

And until an actual plan of action is released for jobs I will be more anxious than hopeful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travesty

Indeed they are.

In all seriousness though, it seems to me there are far fewer people excited about bow-harp than questioning it. I'm glad you're excited, but I don't think you're the majority.

---

Ah, you see the funny thing about that is people against an idea tend to be far more vocal about their opinions than people who support it. The same thing has been seen even in these forums many times in the past.

Being that there exists so much evidence to suggest that Archer will indeed be getting Bard, anyone who is excited will simply smile and wait. People who find it disagreeable or disappointing will however vent their feelings.

I won't presume to say there are more people supporting the Barcher. I also won't presume to say there are more people against it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I won't presume to say there are more people supporting the Barcher. I also won't presume to say there are more people against it.

---

Eh, I will. The reaction is pretty lopsided. And people who like an idea tend to come out in support of it amid significant criticism. Not many are doing that.

I would wager that the people who refuse to accept that it is a harp are mostly of the same disposition as I am... I really, really don't want to believe they've tried to join two disparate items into one in such an awkward manner either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

I would wager that the people who refuse to accept that it is a harp are mostly of the same disposition as I am... I really, really don't want to believe they've tried to join two disparate items into one in such an awkward manner either.

---

Agreed.

At first I just thought it didn't look much like a harp. Now I feel the same way you do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

I would wager that the people who refuse to accept that it is a harp are mostly of the same disposition as I am... I really, really don't want to believe they've tried to join two disparate items into one in such an awkward manner either.

---

Yep. Pretty much what I meant by denial a few pages back.

One thing I think we can agree on though is that if they are going to do this they better do it right. I won't accept a half-assed mash-up of an instrument and a weapon.

The thing about trying something new/different is that most people will cry out against it at first. In the end though, the execution of that idea is what will ultimately determine its success.

By being excited for Barcher, I also harbor a good many expectations. I suppose in the end the whole "harp is a lie" debate was more of a debate of hope vs doubt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

By being excited for Barcher, I also harbor a good many expectations. I suppose in the end the whole "harp is a lie" debate was more of a debate of hope vs doubt.[/COLOR]

---

Ditto. I'm moving this over because I think it fits the direction this conversation has gone on, as well. If they do this wrong, it'll be a clusterf**k, but there is a chance it'll be done effectively so that Archer has more responsibilities than just "Don't take hate" and actually gets the minstrel into some combat as opposed to playing a job as simple as casting songs that, unless they want you to pull, can be botted without anybody even noticing.

Both jobs needed some more shit to do, imho. Anyway -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Hypothetical Endgame Battle:

Battle starts, barcher knocks an arrow, but casts haste buffs because he's not an idiot that needs to be told that his attacks take hate way too godsdamned fast to be doing any damage yet. While the other members use their haste to get their first round of true buffs in place... - barcher knocks another arrow. Waits.

The party is ready, barcher hits the attack and accuracy songs, and the tank calls that hate is secure - barcher EXPLODES out of the gate with three arrows to the mobs back and starts building TP while the rest of the party begins the grind.

Repeat?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

The idea of a bow that bends, folds or moves in any way counter to it's primary function as a bow almost seems sacrilegious to me. And it would have to be designed extremely well before I'd be willing to accept it.

---

I'm fairly certain that compound bows can fold.

http://www.archeryhistory.com/recurves/recurves.htm

There are a few more traditional bows that can fold on that page.

In regards to the thread/OP, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. More ridiculous things have been done in this game all ready (totem pole magitek armors, gun-halberds, Lalafell-staches).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

I'm fairly certain that compound bows can fold.

http://www.archeryhistory.com/recurves/recurves.htm

There are a few more traditional bows that can fold on that page.

In regards to the thread/OP, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. More ridiculous things have been done in this game all ready (totem pole magitek armors, gun-halberds, Lalafell-staches).

---

Yeah dude, anyone who ever favored archery as their main weapon (not only in ffxiv) probably know that some bows are collapsible.

Compound bows just refer to bows that are made of more than one material. Some can fold... but never in use, and never while strung.

There is one bow in that link that I saw that folds, (the browning folding bow) and alot that can be taken apart.

The idea of a bow that folds into something else is silly for several reasons. The first being it wouldnt ever be able to fold while strung, and the act of stringing and unstringing a bow is not something you can really do quickly and over and over again.

The structural integrity is also something to consider... that harp won't have any flexion, that bow would really have the effective range of a bow half it's size... which is awful.

And mainly the sheer extra weight would be arduous at best. Long bows and Recurve bows have a draw strength usually around 100 pounds. Having to draw 100 pounds of weight while holding that harp up is not going to be an easy thing to do.

Bows work because of the tension they hold... being able to fold it up or change it into something else while it's strung is just not going to happen, and trying to design something around that premise just seems feeble.

Blah, blah, fantasy, make believe--no!... Just, no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Compound bows just refer to bows that are made of more than one material. Some can fold... but never in use, and never while strung.

There is one bow in that link that I saw that folds, (the browning folding bow) and alot that can be taken apart.

The idea of a bow that folds into something else is silly for several reasons. The first being it wouldnt ever be able to fold while strung, and the act of stringing and unstringing a bow is not something you can really do quickly and over and over again.

The structural integrity is also something to consider... that harp won't have any flexion, that bow would really have the effective range of a bow half it's size... which is awful.

And mainly the sheer extra weight would be arduous at best. Long bows and Recurve bows have a draw strength usually around 100 pounds. Having to draw 100 pounds of weight while holding that harp up is not going to be an easy thing to do.

Bows work because of the tension they hold... being able to fold it up or change it into something else while it's strung is just not going to happen, and trying to design something around that premise just seems feeble.

Blah, blah, fantasy, make believe--no!... Just, no.

---

D: then what do you suggest it is huh???

I'm not saying it isn't a bow harp... I'm saying it's stupid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

Compound bows just refer to bows that are made of more than one material. Some can fold... but never in use, and never while strung.

There is one bow in that link that I saw that folds, (the browning folding bow) and alot that can be taken apart.

The idea of a bow that folds into something else is silly for several reasons. The first being it wouldnt ever be able to fold while strung, and the act of stringing and unstringing a bow is not something you can really do quickly and over and over again.

The structural integrity is also something to consider... that harp won't have any flexion, that bow would really have the effective range of a bow half it's size... which is awful.

And mainly the sheer extra weight would be arduous at best. Long bows and Recurve bows have a draw strength usually around 100 pounds. Having to draw 100 pounds of weight while holding that harp up is not going to be an easy thing to do.

Bows work because of the tension they hold... being able to fold it up or change it into something else while it's strung is just not going to happen, and trying to design something around that premise just seems feeble.

Blah, blah, fantasy, make believe--no!... Just, no.

---

I know you don't like the whole fantasy argument, but you really are going too far into the reality of it. From a series that had the Buster Sword and the Gunblade in the past, I think we can afford to overlook the little realistic details of a transforming bow mechanic so long as it's convincingly designed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I'm not saying it isn't a bow harp... I'm saying it's stupid.

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So its not the most glorious idea. The still made it, wheather its physically possible or not.
enjoy your sword or lance or what have you, cuz im gonna be rockin out on my bow-harp.

I will admit that it doesn't need to be 100% physically accurate. I just don't think they should be trying to create a bow that transforms when the outcome is so bad... and the clear alternative is to just carry a harp and a bow.

It's like the joke about Astronauts and Cosmonauts.

When NASA started conducting experiments in Null gravity they came across a problem with ball point and fountain pens not working because there was nothing to draw the ink out and on to the surface of whatever you were writing on, so NASA designed a pen that could write in null gravity, upside down, under water and costs thousands of dollars.

When confronted with the same problem, the Russian Cosmonauts all started using pencils.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

I will admit that it doesn't need to be 100% physically accurate. I just don't think they should be trying to create a bow that transforms when the outcome is so bad... and the clear alternative is to just carry a harp and a bow.

It's like the joke about Astronauts and Cosmonauts.



When NASA started conducting experiments in Null gravity they came across a problem with ball point and fountain pens not working because there was nothing to draw the ink out and on to the surface of whatever you were writing on, so NASA designed a pen that could write in null gravity, upside down, under water and costs thousands of dollars.

When confronted with the same problem, the Russian Cosmonauts all started using pencils.

---

Yeah, I can see where your coming from. To be honest I wasn't expecting a bow-harp, but I'm curious to find out its finer points. As for an Artifact weapon I was expecting something along the lines of this. Still, we gotta be more open-minded. If it sucks then we have all right to complain, until then we should save are comments on its functionality till after we've tried it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferth

I will admit that it doesn't need to be 100% physically accurate. I just don't think they should be trying to create a bow that transforms when the outcome is so bad... and the clear alternative is to just carry a harp and a bow.

It's like the joke about Astronauts and Cosmonauts.

When NASA started conducting experiments in Null gravity they came across a problem with ball point and fountain pens not working because there was nothing to draw the ink out and on to the surface of whatever you were writing on, so NASA designed a pen that could write in null gravity, upside down, under water and costs thousands of dollars.

When confronted with the same problem, the Russian Cosmonauts all started using pencils.

---

As far as cost efficiency goes the pencil is much better. That thousand-dollar pen sounds much more cool to me though!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

this

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Good ol' RO...

By this point I'm just arguing out of stubbornness.

If you are excited for the bow harps and Barchers more power to you.

I just really am not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

As far as cost efficiency goes the pencil is much better. That thousand-dollar pen sounds much more cool to me though!

---

You are right... they are pretty damn cool. But they also work... <<;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ferth

You are right... they are pretty damn cool. But they also work... <<;

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Yeah, imagine if the pen broke the entire english language, then it's not so cool anymore. Which is relevant because barcher breaks the entire FFXIV game.

Barcher sets a precedent for destruction of the armory system as we know it. The end is nigh!

Eventually you just have to question their ability to fix a game when all they do is mutilate it.

-Crafters are all now materia users (more or less)
-Game will be repositioned as a gear grind
-Player-run economy compromised by handouts

And now this barcher debacle, setting up the premise for new tools/weapons not having their own class. Barcher defies the rules of the game and creates inconsistencies and confusion. Not only does it deprive players of a reasonable sense of progression, but it doesn't even begin to make sense with respect to the entire foundation of the game.