The whole Summoner "has been re-worked" is sad

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

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Honestly the stream did what it was suppose to do, get us talking about Heavensward and the new abilities from it.

And oh god the reading of the 3.0 patch notes will be both incredibly interesting and incredibly boring, it's going to be so awkward to watch lol.

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Originally Posted by Parryacg

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The issue I've got with "It's summoning because we're using Akh Morn!" is that let's be honest, it's flavor text to make it feel more like 'Summoner' but would anyone really be happy if we didn't summon Titan Egi and instead casted Tumult in an AoE after Titan's weird head showed up for a second (Which, in my incredibly limited knowledge of Final Fantasy seems more like Blue Mage right >.>;?) ? That's what I feel what people say "This doesn't feel like SMN" mean. Though I do agree, bandage up what we've got then work from there, but folks seem at odds of what the "actual" problem" is.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

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actually no blue magic is you get hit by an attack and learn it. you don't not summon the monster to use the skill (it's why blue magic and ahk morn are different)

besides FF 10 11 13

when you summon it's a big nuke attack (or heal/buff) the summon pops out does it's thing and leaves. i personally love that we are getting a summon nuke (it pops out does it's attack and leaves) cause it's how i wanted summoner to be. (course i am fine with summons also being pets)

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Originally Posted by chococo

in that case they need better planners.

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Funny thing about planning. The best planners are the ones who can adapt to new and changing ideas, technology, etc. The ones who lay out a plan and stick to it come Hell or high water are the ones who generally fail.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

when you summon it's a big nuke attack (or heal/buff) the summon pops out does it's thing and leaves. i personally love that we are getting a summon nuke (it pops out does it's attack and leaves) cause it's how i wanted summoner to be. (course i am fine with summons also being pets)

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That's how I originally envisioned SMN in this game with the artwork they provided. All the abilities of ACN (with the carbuncle pet still), but able to do summons like in many of the single player games (show up, nuke, leave).

That being said, I love Affliction warlock (and Demonology, since it seems to be going down that road with Metamorphasis/Bahamut Trance), so I'm happy with how it came out.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

(Which, in my incredibly limited knowledge of Final Fantasy seems more like Blue Mage right >.>;?) ?

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They don't summon monsters. They just learn skills from monsters and incorporate those abilities into their own arsenal. Picture a person living out in the wilderness picking up how to live with wolves or something. Now apply that to monsters as well. For something mindboggling, check out their spell list in FFXI:

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mage#Blue_Magic

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

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Blue magic generally comes from normal monsters, though not all (Kimarhi, who's limit break was Blue Magic, had his strongest attack learned from Omega for example. Of course he was a bit different from normal Blue Magic users, but still.)

Summon magic in most of the games was one big attack, higher mp then your usual spells, special/longer animation...and usually not worth the cost, though IX atleast attached it to both White Mages so they had more attacking options.

Also some (like Bahamut and Levi in IV, Bahamut was the usual one you had to beat first in other games too) you had to defeat the summon first to use them.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

actually no blue magic is you get hit by an attack and learn it. you don't not summon the monster to use the skill (it's why blue magic and ahk morn are different)

besides FF 10 11 13

when you summon it's a big nuke attack (or heal/buff) the summon pops out does it's thing and leaves. i personally love that we are getting a summon nuke (it pops out does it's attack and leaves) cause it's how i wanted summoner to be. (course i am fine with summons also being pets)

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I think the point is that we are basically using the skill of an enemy, whether that enemy is a primal or not is irrelevant. When using Dreadwyrm Trance the SMN doesn't actually summon out an incarnation of Bahamut to cast Akh Morn, and the SMN doesn't even change in appearance the way Iceheart/Ysayle did with Shiva, so mechanically it is just the SMN using a skill they copied from Bahamut... We might be channeling his aether but we're not actually summoning him. That is actually closer to a Blue Mage than a Summoner in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

but we're not actually summoning him.

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yes we do. i even gave the link showing us summon bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

https://youtu.be/kbvv0rgrT4k?t=126

summoner clearly summons bahamut to use the skill.

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Not really summoning him. More like invoking.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Not really summoning him. More like invoking.

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it's summoning.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Not really summoning him. More like invoking.

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Summon is actually a synonym of Invoke

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/b2/b271...27f7710f25.jpg

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Originally Posted by Averax

Summon is actually a synonym of Invoke

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Still feel it's better to split the two apart. Egi's you physically summon (even though that's just "invoking" a physical essence of the Primal). Bahamut you're just channelling, though it's easier to say you invoke his powers.
I dunno. Summoner should just be renamed to Evoker, as the only true Summoners in this game are the Beastmen (and even they can't "control" their Primal) .-.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

i personally love that we are getting a summon nuke (it pops out does it's attack and leaves) cause it's how i wanted summoner to be. (course i am fine with summons also being pets)

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This isn't what we are getting though....

We summon Bahamut's essence and it stays with us in the form of Bahamut Aether stacks that we then spend on actions.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it's summoning.

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But that is NOT the description of what a Summoner is in this game.
You summon a tiny essence of the Primal to fight alongside you.

Not here's a head! RAWR, okay I got some of his powers, he left 2 seconds ago.
Summoners still need help or it needs to be reworked into this Evoker thingy.
Just going to see what they wanna do with pet's here later on.

Read the Summoner description in Final Fantasy XIV. Summoner's harness the energy of the primals and shape them into biddable avatars which are the Egis. Channeling the power of Bahamut using the Dreadwyrm trance is exactly what Summoners do.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

But that is NOT the description of what a Summoner is in this game.
You summon a tiny essence of the Primal to fight alongside you.

Not here's a head! RAWR, okay I got some of his powers, he left 2 seconds ago.
Summoners still need help or it needs to be reworked into this Evoker thingy.
Just going to see what they wanna do with pet's here later on.

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Let's go ahead and take away the coolest ability that summoners are ever going to get and give it to a job that don't exist because it doesn't involve summoning. Let's just go ahead and remove all abilities that are not summon 1, summon 2, summon 3, rouse, spur, and enkindle.

You other summoners need to calm down a tick and realize that our job duller than dishwater, and Sqare is trying to fix that.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

yes we do. i even gave the link showing us summon bahamut.

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I'm really not sure what to take from this. The head is on screen for less than a couple of seconds and it took me several replays to figure out that it was even supposed to be a head. I certainly wouldn't have made the connection to Bahamut just by looking at it, because it resembles Bahamut in the same way that my three year old's stick picture resembles a person.

I get what you're saying, and that's fine. Yes, having summons vanish after they've done their deed is very much the 'norm' for summoners of old and it's fine that they'd want to add it here in FFXIV as well. However, what it feels like is an afterthought. This isn't some well-fleshed out system where we can summon multiple avatars for their super skills, it's just one skill. An exception to the general rule.

For that reason alone, it doesn't really give the impression of a summon as much as I consider it just another spell or ability. They even call the ability Dreadwyrm, so it's not as if they've given themselves much wiggle-room to add new variants down the road. It's a shame, because a system like this could have been a great entryway to add some truly powerful skills which give the summoner some variation.

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Originally Posted by Averax

You other summoners need to calm down a tick and realize that our job duller than dishwater, and Sqare is trying to fix that.

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They can start by putting in some effort rather than using in the first 'cool' idea thrown around the office. One look at the forums could have told them where the areas for improvement are, none of which (aside from the minor issue of glamors) are addressed with this update.

Treat the Dreadwyrm Stance the same way Lady Iceheart became Shiva. We can even go far as saying that she attained the form of Shiva (which was really just a change of clothes) because she was already an Elezen. As Bahamut is a city sized dragon and we're not of the same race, we can only go so far as to call upon his essence. Changing forms would destroy our bodies.

(Lady Iceheart was in Frost Stance is what I'm basically saying)

It would be interesting if that becomes a trend for summoner, have a pet but then become a stance dance master
Bahamut stance
Shiva stance
Ifrit Stance
Titan stance
ect ect

That would most certainly not get boring @.@ can i have it?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Treat the Dreadwyrm Stance the same way Lady Iceheart became Shiva. We can even go far as saying that she attained the form of Shiva (which was really just a change of clothes) because she was already an Elezen. As Bahamut is a city sized dragon and we're not of the same race, we can only go so far as to call upon his essence. Changing forms would destroy our bodies.

(Lady Iceheart was in Frost Stance is what I'm basically saying)

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Do we magically turn into the dreadwyrm himself and blast foes with almighty rage? No. Do we summon a primal beast from the aether and smite our foes with the full force of Megaflare? No.

I wish people would stop with these silly comparisons. Lady Iceheart didn't just summon shiva's skull and spit out a few ice crystals. She BECAME Shiva, body and soul. All her abilities were transformed to the power of ice and snow. She threw down ice shards, summoned ice golems, turned everyone into popsicles with Diamond Dust. She, for all intents and purposes, actually WAS Shiva.

Had we gotten anything as remotely cool as that (see what I did there?) I doubt anyone would be complaining.

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Originally Posted by Aryalandi

It would be interesting if that becomes a trend for summoner, have a pet but then become a stance dance master

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It's a nice thought, but the only issue I have with it is that you would have to have a lot of different stacks for different primals if they went this route. That's a whole host of skills to try and shoe-horn into your rotation, and you know you wouldn't be considered 'optimal' unless you were throwing Shiva in alongside your Ifrits and Ramuhs.

I think a portion of this would go away if the bahamut aether, made a mini bahamut appear, and
it did the attack, then left. atm, the head appears, just to show its his aether, dissapears, then a few
moments later, the smn does the attack.

I'm holding my breath to see what adjustments are made to the egis.

EDIT-> if they wanted to do something in the future where smn was a mixture of a pet class
and a class that summons mini things to do big attacks in every so often on longer cool downs,
I'd be ok with that.

EDIT: Meh never mind. re-read what I posted after the fact and ended up being way more asshat then I intended. Suffice it to say, I'm gonna wait til the game actually comes out before making snap judgments.

My problem with smn was mana. That's all I needed to be sorted. I'm pretty much happy with what yoship has showned. We might get new egis eventually :) roll on june!

Yesterday was the very first time I played with a SMN. Considering how much I run DF.. could be telling of how many actually bother with SMN.

SMN had this same issue in FFXI as well, and took a number of years for the team to toss them a bone.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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Re-read what I wrote. We can't become Bahamut because: he's a dragon. He's the size of a city. Our bodies would be destroyed.

Now to copy-paste what I wrote on GameFAQs: "Let's also take into consideration that both Iceheart and Shiva want the exact same thing and because of this, Shiva let Iceheart take control (an assumption, but it makes sense why Iceheart's body and soul wasn't absorbed). Therefore, if we were to find an excuse to take the form of other Primals, we would need to share their thoughts and ideals perfectly, as well as have the Primal accept us. Without that, the Primal would just absorb us and we would cease to exist (Sahagin in 2.2 getting absorbed by Leviathan. Probably tried to take control, Leviathan denied him and thus, absorbed the potential usurper)."

There's also a chance we can't summon his Egi because it would be too powerful (or underwhelming and thus MORE COMPLAINTS). So SE opted with what they have been trying to lay out: players with the Echo can channel the Primal, but only enough that they do not let the Primal they're channelling possess them, or destroy their body (a human transforming into Ifrit, for example, would be gory and irreversible).

People could "become" summons.. in the way Haseo "becomes" Skeith in .hack, have it be like an aeither shell you are inside of/the heart of that does a move then disappears.. anything beyond that though...

http://38.media.tumblr.com/76983b4be...ExS1ryzt6n.gif
No thank you

The way they are doing it with bahamut is actually very cool

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Originally Posted by Limecat

Huh, more abilities for the Egis themselves? Are they going to add slots to the bars? There's no room left on the current pet hotbar for anything. I'm loving that Tri-Disaster change though.

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There are still 4 slots free on the pet crosshotbar

Controller master interface ^^

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Originally Posted by Nestama

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Not if we channel Bahamut properly, I mean, hell his head looked pretty darn small for something the size of a city. I mean, if we have Egis which are small as heck, why can't we have bits of Bahamut-esque traits to signify we're summoning Bahamut and using our bodies as the avatar?

Iceheart's body and soul weren't absorbed due to her possessing the Echo and possible more so due to her possibly having the blessing of light (As she does quote Hydaelyn's "Hear.. Think.. Feel." quote), allowing her to exist as a separate entity from Shiva. The Sahagin priest was absorbed simply because he was just a formless mass of Aether, he joined up incredibly easy with Leviathan because he was overwhelmed. If someone with the blessing of light or an Ascian allowed a primal to inhibit their bodies, that wouldn't occur as both parties have something acting as an anchor to their essence, Hydaelyn and Zodiark respectively.

I can understand why we wouldn't be allowed to have Bahamut-egi, that's actually incredibly reasonable, but we're not just any player with the Echo, we're a player with the echo and the blessing of light/Midgardsormr's pact to prevent that from happening. I can understand lore concerns for something like the gory and irreversible changes, look at Captain Morgan in Sastacha HM, for an example, but he, like a lot of other NPCs, lack the blessing of light which the PCs have and it'd allow such of an event occur.

If they wanted it to feel more like a summoner skill, Bahamut should be the one using Akh Morn, or at least made it look like we're allowing Bahamut to use our form with some nifty visual things like mini Bahamut aether wings or a mini bahamut aether head over ours.

Somewhat unrelated, but did Louisoix have the Echo?

His head is small because it's just (probably) the essence (barely 1% of it, maybe?), as well as convenience. Making his head the same size as the Aetheryte plaza in Limsa would only cause issues.
We also only know for a fact that Primals can't temper us from the outside, but we have no idea if they could 'possess' us from within.

The story is telling you what they want to do in the future. @15 you see what a person more powerful than we still are now is capable of summoning on a whim, later again you can see that an npc was not only able to summon but control a full fledged primal and not die or be sac'd for it. And once again after that you see that the most powerful npc's we know of have to commune and stay as a collective just to even prepare to summon a god. I thought DX11 was a myth and we are getting it. I'm not defending SMN and tbh i'm among those who do not level ACN in protest to what they are, but I do know FF and you guys are just baby smn relearning the lost art and doing so very inefficiently because the knowledge provided to you character is limited and in some cases wrong.
/thread

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Originally Posted by Nestama

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You know, I'm not exactly so sure, but considering his relevance to the plot and his connection with finding the Scions, I'd have to believe he would have.

Then why not use that even more minute fraction to possess us and allow him to use Akh Morn and all? We ultimately don't know percentages of how much Bahamut juice we've got so it's kind of a silly argument :P I'm not too sure if they could temper us from 'within' though, it's really all about having a solid ground for your essence to latch onto and prevent from being swallowed up by the Primal's, which we have due to our connection with Hydaelyn/Midgard.

SE should bring in elemental weakness and rework both blm and smn to fit in with it, it would allow for all the Egi's to be available and viable for situations, the "problem" with this game is its just hit hard and fast, there for eliminating the need to have individual summons for any other purpose. why would we need 8 summons for elements when we can do it with 3? without the need for elemental weakness. because its variety and also can be used more effectively.

Imagine going to snowcloak peak knowing its Blizzards and ice, all the mobs there are ice based, so Ifrit would be best viable to use with this a bonus for using the correct Egi and some better moves "I.E with this stacking thats coming" to make better Damage Dealing (so get some stacks and use hellfire on a boss that does some decent damage and adds a dot which can be used with our fester but is limited to the stacking thus making it something to work towards.)

The Summoner art is a lost art that recently got rediscovered so information on summoning is incomplete at best. Ysayle has a more knowledge of Summoning than Y'mhitra that's why she is able to summon Shiva by transforming into her. It does seem like npc characters have different knowledge of the Summoner arts than the pc so they can summon primals on a whim. Currently we are a baby Summoner just learning the art and in Heavensward we will hit puberty in the Summoning art and that's how we gain the power of the Elder Primal Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner art is a lost art that recently got rediscovered so information on summoning is incomplete at best. Ysayle has a more knowledge of Summoning than Y'mhitra that's why she is able to summon Shiva by transforming into her. It does seem like npc characters have different knowledge of the Summoner arts than the pc so they can summon primals on a whim. Currently we are a baby Summoner just learning the art and in Heavensward we will hit puberty in the Summoning art and that's how we gain the power of the Elder Primal Bahamut.

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Oh.. thats why we summon Ifrit fetus, a chicken nugget and a green dumb Pterodactylus who does minimun dps compare to us... and now we will trow a stupid pillar of light nuke stole from an enemy like freaking blue mages... after having an amorf blue thing over our head...

Our chars really suck as SMN then

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Currently we are a baby Summoner just learning the art and in Heavensward we will hit puberty in the Summoning art and that's how we gain the power of the Elder Primal Bahamut.

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I really like this analogy. Puberty is that awkward time of your life where you're not quite sure who or what you are yet and everything is against you. Sounds very much like Summoner to be honest.

I still don't buy into this whole Bahamut nonsense. If we can summon a weak version of Garuda, then why would Bahamut be any different? It's been stated numerous times that a primals strength in Eorzea is based on the crystals used to summon them. We're not tapping into their current strength, but using their essence. This explains why we can summon Garuda, Titan and Ifrit even once the primals themselves are vanquished. Or even use the Egi's against their own primal forms.

It's probably safe to say that the essence of Garuda, Titan and Ifrit is far more powerful than any primal we've ever faced in Eorzea and likely equal to Bahamut's primal essence. Bahamut draws strength mostly from the dragon he once was and the captive dragons maintaining his Primal form. Take that away and he's just another Shiva or Ifrit.

At any rate, none of this changes the fact that ultimately what Summoner's are getting out of 3.0 is a single nuke. Call it Megaflare, call it Ank Morn, call it Burst for all I care, it's still just a single nuke, one which requires charges just to use. The 'Bahamut' connection might be enough to sway those who are only interested in names and lore, but I'm more concerned with how the job actually plays. Right now all I'm seeing is a huge disappointment and a complete disregard for the issues which currrently plague the job.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I still don't buy into this whole Bahamut nonsense. If we can summon a weak version of Garuda, then why would Bahamut be any different?

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Wait for the expansion, then make your decisions once you read the quest text and find out the reason why it's like that. :)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

At any rate, none of this changes the fact that ultimately what Summoner's are getting out of 3.0 is a single nuke.

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Wait for the expansion, then make your decisions once you play around with all the new skills (even the ones that they didn't show). :)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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You forgot Tri-Disaster.

The Allagans (which is more-or-less what the summoner arts are from) pretty much subdued The entire Island of Mercydia, one shotted Bahamut (and apparently Odin...), and found a way to utilize Primal essences for their own purposes. I don't see how it's a huge leap, if not unreasonable, for something like Dreadwyrm trance to be usable.

You summoners are all playing a dangerous game trying to utilize Allagan techniques...it is beyond human reckoning!

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Originally Posted by Bracken

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More than BLM and SMN would need to be reworked to fit with an elemental weakness system. WHM, SCH, NIN etc they all have access to spells that have elemental attributes.

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Originally Posted by Galand

Fixing Summoners shouldnt be hard.

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Actually I think fixing summoner is gonna be pretty hard. They fucked up with summoner so bad they'll have to pretty much re-make the job if they are going to make it even close to what we have in mind in terms of summoner.

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Originally Posted by thunderbreak

to what we have in mind in terms of summoner.

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We can argue/discuss/ask for tweaks, additions or whatever, but SMN is SE's to portray how they want in their game.