The Black Mage Rotations

I do it, too. But remember they are killing double flare -somehow- so we have to see what change they make.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I do it, too. But remember they are killing double flare -somehow- so we have to see what change they make.

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I'm looking forward to see what they are doing. It could be a huge game changer for how BLM is played, if the timing of when you get the buffs are changed.

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Originally Posted by Turbo_Gerbil

I'm looking forward to see what they are doing. It could be a huge game changer for how BLM is played, if the timing of when you get the buffs are changed.

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Which they might gonna do according to the latest famitsu interview.

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What about black mage?

Yoshida: For black mage, there's a bug related to casting speed which has put its DPS ahead of other jobs. In patch 2.1, we'll be fixing this, which should put the overall DPS of a black mage on par with that of other DPS jobs.

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I'm curious how they'll eliminate the double UI3 casting speed without opening the game to other vulnerabilities. First thing that comes to mind is applying the buff on cast, I look forward to misu... abus.... *ahem* maximizing the potential which that could create for the job.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Which they might gonna do according to the latest famitsu interview.

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What about black mage?

Yoshida: For black mage, there's a bug related to casting speed which has put its DPS ahead of other jobs. In patch 2.1, we'll be fixing this, which should put the overall DPS of a black mage on par with that of other DPS jobs.

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... Why don't they just remove black mage while they are at it? Can't move while casting and now taking away the speed boost? Never used the double flare glitch, so no worries about that.

I AOE like this

quelling strikes > swift cast > flare >flare >flare >flare >flare

<3 bard love for ever! =D

ballad > foes req

It's not a glitch, it's using the game mechanics with how it applies/removes buffs. I am curious how they plan on making it so BLM's don't get 2x fast casts as well as cannot cast double flare.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

All parses were done for 2 minutes nonstop on 3 targets.

Rotation
Note: Initial Flare of rotation was followed by Convert + a second Flare. This was repeated on CD.

Data

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It sounds as if you are saying you are using the double flare convert combo twice in each test, but at the beginning you say these are 2 minute tests. Are you using convert twice in under 2 minutes? And if so please teach me how. :p

Second, I wanted to talk about what to use the two extra swiftcasts on inbetween double flare combos. What about F3>fast cast F2>swiftcast>flare>transpose etc. You would use swiftcast after the F2 cast timer is complete but before F2 gcd is finished, so no time would be wasted on swiftcast animation, and then get an earlier transpose during flare's gcd allowing you to continue the rotation sooner. I was wondering if using this twice during convert cd is a dps gain for the aoe rotation.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Honestly it does not matter much what adjustment they do to us. We will find a way around it, new rotation, new theory crafting and all the fun in the world. However, what we can't get around is Twintania drop. I'm very devastated by it and can't believe that I'm being forced to play SMN :(.

Say what you want but, not being on the same ground as every job is reason enough to jump ship :(. Hopefully we get an answer tonight in the live letter.

Note: if you think dark steel going to bring you any where close to SMN ilvl95 book, you really never understood the value of INT to SMN and BLM.

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For the love of crap, quit turning (almost)every GD post you make in almost every thread into complaining about the shield not dropping.

Yes, because I'm ONLY a drg. Me with my full fifty character, me with my more than one character cuz I'm out of crap to do. Me who wants every job to be treated fairly... but this issue is as dead a horse as "brd is dps not support" and "str war is better!" They are aware of the -problem- as you would categorize it, continuing to complain, even after you swapped to summoner for some reason, is pointless.

edited for sarcastic italicization.

I did not swap yet and will only swap after 2.1 when it is confirmed that BLM problem is being ignored.

Edit: you win, tired of the harassment and hatred I received. All posts are deleted. I will wait until tonight live letter and hope for the best.

GL to you, to us all, but I have a feeling you'll be playing summoner next week.

Just a heads up that the AoE rotations will absolutely be changing after this patch and the ST rotation may change a bit as well. After I've played around with it a bit, I'll come update this thread.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

Just a heads up that the AoE rotations will absolutely be changing after this patch and the ST rotation may change a bit as well. After I've played around with it a bit, I'll come update this thread.

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The only difference will be an exchange of B2 with Freeze and an overall nerf to damage. Doing a F2 rotation runs you 2s over GCD and, with the new changes, Freezex2>F3>F>Transpose will run you 2s over the GCD as well. So it comes down to "Pot over total number of casts", and the standard AOE rotation with Freeze subbed in is still superior to F2, even if you're forced to hardcast Flare.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

Agreed. Although they've confirmed they are only fixing the back to back Flares, I am a little scared it may "fix" the overall ability to double-dip as you mentioned. If that were to occur then the AoE rotation I've posted would probably need to be scrapped and a Fire II AoE rotation be adopted.

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I tried it for a little bit this morning. As far as I can tell, double-dip is gone. :( What's weird is that you still need a slight delay when changing from Blizzard/Freeze to Fire. Just try spamming B3 > F3 > B3 > F3 to see. I forgot to actually try the double-Flare.

Also, the rumors about the mana tick syncing to your UI buff seem to be false. It's every 3 seconds as usual.

No it's not false, I noticed a huge difference.
Pre-patch one could cast B3 when low on MP, then F3 RIGHT after it and get half your MP back with 1 tick. Was great for trash with no need for Thunder.
Post-patch if you do this, you will launch your F3 before your MP tick procs, and therefore you will end up in AF3 with no MP and have to go back to B3.
Now it is kind of mandatory to use either Thunder 1-2 or Scathe before your F3.

Anyone else noticed that ?

Ive been having some instability with my rotation with 3629 mana.
Sometimes I will end my 5 Fire 1 cycle with enough mana for B3 and T2, sometimes with enough for B3 and T1, and sometimes not even enough for B3 and T1...
It all hinges on when the last UI tick goes off, sometimes right after a thunder 1/2, or not...

The most stable rotation that I have found so far (for the regeneration phase) is B3 - B1 - T2 - F3.
B1 has the lowest mana cost, so it is the most readily available ability, and better than Scathe unless you need to move at that moment.
This lets me get 1 tick from UI3, then T2 (less clipping due to the longer regen phase), and F3 immediately after T2. Using this rotation I dont have to wait for any ticks, and I never clip a tick by using F3 early.

That said, I do not know if this IS in fact better than B3 - T2 - wait for tick - F3. The wait is less than a gcd, but it is time spend doing nothing.

All in all, BLM feels a lot more clunky now.

What is happening is that AF3 and UI3 buffs disappear about 0.5 second before the cast is finished, and that is the reason why you don't get a mana back like you used. You only get the normal mana tick of 2% instead of UI buffed one.

Casting B3>T2>F3 will sometimes not leave you with full MP ticks, it's slower now. Or at least not perfectly synced as people say.

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Originally Posted by Thalassocrat

Casting B3>T2>F3 will sometimes not leave you with full MP ticks, it's slower now. Or at least not perfectly synced as people say.

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That is the crux of the issue... that and being left with slightly different amounts of mana at the end of the fire phase/cycle depending on how your last tick lined up.
The safe thing to do seems to be to use a 1 gcd filler either after B3 or after T2 to ensure you get the most out of your ticks. It may be a bit of a dps loss, but its is a LOT better than cutting out maybe 1/3-1/4 of your fire cycle.

Yeah, I'm having the same issue. What's worse, I can cast B3 > B2 > F3, and still end up only getting 1 tic.

They really need to fix this. It's making BLM very clumsy to play.

Why does my BLM feel funny? I could not put my hand on it since I was ded tired yesterday. Something was different just could not tell what -_-/.

I'm not really getting the MP tick problem as often as others. Even testing right now I can get to full MP as long as I wait roughly the same length of time as before. I would always end up with about 2/3 MP if I went Fire III > Fire spam > Blizz III > Fire III as soon as UI activates. If I waited a second, I'd be at full MP.

If I wait a second and then cast Fire III right now I'm usually at 100% (minus Fire III cost).

However, usually is the keyword there. I won't complain about the DPS loss as it was, in the end, a bug that we knew was going to be fixed before we were told it was going to be fixed (and if you didn't know, you probably shouldn't have an opinion on balance at all), BUT right now BLM is strangely inconsistent. I sometimes find myself waiting like 4 seconds before I get an MP tick for no apparent reason. While it isn't happening often, it still is. Not to mention that I now seem to find myself losing UI just before my Fire spell finishes casting but then I have to move, which leaves me with no AF or UI, which is horrible either way.

While it makes me feel weak and slow to the point where I'm not enjoying it (not because of low damage, because of inconsistency), I was tanking with a BLM with very similar gear to me. He seemed to be doing okay damage, yet similar to me he would find himself standing there doing nothing because of weird inconsistencies. Our WHM easily outdamaged everyone, even though Holy was nerfed a little.

I don't want our bug back, I want consistency back. We already have a variable that determines our DPS (Firestarter/Thundercloud), making MP ticks another variable makes it extremely clunky to play. Whether this is just another bug caused by the change to AF/UI or by choice, it needs to change. I want to stay on my BLM, not jump ship to the best class like the majority of MMO players. I have so much love for BLM with Vivi as one of my favorite video game characters of all time. :(

Yea, the mana issue is caused by UI ending early since sometimes you'd get mana at the very last millisecond to top you off.
Regen is not slower, it's just that our UI phase ends if we use the same order of spells.

Any consideration of using Thunder III to offset this?

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Any consideration of using Thunder III to offset this?

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Already doing that, it fixed it for me, Thunder III almost always guarantee full mana before Fire rotation starts.

I've started casting Scathe as soon as my first tick of Mana pops. This usually makes it were I end up at full MP just after I start casting Fire III. However, sometimes I run into the issue and sometimes I don't. Maybe I'm just finding it hard to adjust in terms of timing ticks, which I could do easily before but if that's the case I'll happily admit I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

What is happening is that AF3 and UI3 buffs disappear about 0.5 second before the cast is finished, and that is the reason why you don't get a mana back like you used. You only get the normal mana tick of 2% instead of UI buffed one.

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Do I have to quote myself? You get the 2 mana ticks like always, but the other one is just a neutral mana tick of 2% when you are not in either UI or AF stance. All you have to do is add an extra 0.5 seconds of wait before casting F3, unless you got the mana tick early, and you wont miss the UI3 buffed mana ticks. Or use Thunder 3 as was suggested.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Why does my BLM feel funny? I could not put my hand on it since I was ded tired yesterday. Something was different just could not tell what -_-/.

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In my opinion, it's mainly mana ticks being funky and completely unreliable. Since they are tied to the clock and no longer our own character (trying to save processing maybe???) soemtimes they go off fast sometimes you wait a lot. Before it was stone solid. Other than that, we can't double cast with 2x speed anymore... that changed the feel of blm greatly for me. but more than anything, Mana ticks.

Well they fixed the double cast by having UI/AF drop when the spell is ~85% through its cast... So why not just undo the change to ticks, and maybe... just maybe... put a 5-10s recast on Flare?
The issue was that Flare could be double-cast by timing the tick correctly. The solution was to sync UI ticks differently... But this obviously has made BLM feel more clunky and just less fun, dps loss aside.
If we just make it so Flare cannot be double-cast by putting a decent recast timer on it, like 10s, then it doesnt matter how the ticks sync up.

This raises the question of "wont that kill Flare-Convert-Swiftcast-Flare?"
Simple solution. Make Swiftcast refresh the cooldown of all of BLM's DAMAGING abilities (assuming this can be coded).
But really the only damaging spell that would even need to be refreshed would be Flare... so it may be easier to code Swiftcast to reset Flare's cooldown... in addition to reducing cast time by 100%.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

In my opinion, it's mainly mana ticks being funky and completely unreliable. Since they are tied to the clock and no longer our own character (trying to save processing maybe???) sometimes they go off fast sometimes you wait a lot. Before it was stone solid. Other than that, we can't double cast with 2x speed anymore... that changed the feel of blm greatly for me. but more than anything, Mana ticks.

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I don't think it goes by the clock anymore. I can consistently get insta-ticks after using Transpose in my rotations every single time except the first one (if I start the rotation with a Fire III > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose > and go back into my rotation the first Transpose tick works fine, however that's something for another time...). People (including myself) jumped to conclusion about it and didn't do enough testing to figure it out. I can still do about 400 DPS in a 3-target AoE, which is still pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Well they fixed the double cast by having UI/AF drop when the spell is ~85% through its cast... So why not just undo the change to ticks, and maybe... just maybe... put a 5-10s recast on Flare?
The issue was that Flare could be double-cast by timing the tick correctly. The solution was to sync UI ticks differently... But this obviously has made BLM feel more clunky and just less fun, dps loss aside.
If we just make it so Flare cannot be double-cast by putting a decent recast timer on it, like 10s, then it doesnt matter how the ticks sync up.

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This doesn't work, either, because we got a pretty decent boost from a fast-cast Fire III > fast cast Fire I. In fact, my rotation as a BLM before was Blizz III > fast-cast Fire III > fast-cast Flare > Transpose > Repeat. This was so quick due to how ticks worked and how fast Flare was. When they fixed the bug, they made this rotation do a reasonable amount of damage opposed to an insane amount. Double Flares weren't the only issue.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

If we just make it so Flare cannot be double-cast by putting a decent recast timer on it, like 10s, then it doesnt matter how the ticks sync up.

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Unfortunately, it's not just double casting Flare that's the problem.
They don't want us to get the reduced cast time on two spells.

Can we stop talking about "syncing"? Nothing changed with the ticks. It is like you said, UI/AF changes 85% into the cast of Fire III/Blizzard III. It has nothing to do with the way the mana ticks.

In the long run, fast-casting Fire 1 isnt/wasnt a gain. You cast it in 1.25s, and then wait out the rest of the 2.5s gcd... for example.
Fast-casting anything that was equal to the gcd didnt make the gcd any shorter... but fast-casting something longer than the gcd (Fire 3 and Flare) was always a gain.

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Originally Posted by SirGazuntai

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

In my opinion, it's mainly mana ticks being funky and completely unreliable. Since they are tied to the clock and no longer our own character (trying to save processing maybe???) soemtimes they go off fast sometimes you wait a lot. Before it was stone solid. Other than that, we can't double cast with 2x speed anymore... that changed the feel of blm greatly for me. but more than anything, Mana ticks.

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I don't think it goes by the clock anymore. I can consistently get insta-ticks after using Transpose in my rotations every single time except the first one (if I start the rotation with a Fire III > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose > and go back into my rotation the first Transpose tick works fine, however that's something for another time...). People (including myself) jumped to conclusion about it and didn't do enough testing to figure it out. I can still do about 400 DPS in a 3-target AoE, which is still pretty good.

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Well, possibly it doesn't go by the clock, but something is still off, consistancy is not the same, I am not saying I can't do it, because I've been doing it for most of the time, but it's just off. Sometimes it just won't go through, and sometimes goes through too fast.

So the thing would be finding what actually changed and how it's working now.

As an update, the ST rotation has not changed for me aside from one small change: Thunder III instead of Thunder II inside the rotation. This is because the extra cast time on Thunder III makes the rotation more fluid now that we can't "cheat" on Umbral Ice to get a tick of mana at or shortly after our Fire III casts.

As for the AoE rotation, it hasn't changed either but it's just a bit less now than it used to be as we can no longer fast-cast Flare and Blizzard II's damage was reduced.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

As for the AoE rotation, it hasn't changed either but it's just a bit less now than it used to be as we can no longer fast-cast Flare and Blizzard II's damage was reduced.

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Are you sure that Blizzard II's 0.5s shorter lockout isn't worth the 50 potency from Freeze?
I feel like
Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Freeze > Freeze > Repeat
is stronger than the old one which is just Blizzard II instead of Freeze.

Have you tried
Fire III > Fire II x3 > Flare > Transpose > Blizzard II/Freeze > Blizzard II/Freeze > Repeat?

I will do some testing myself as well.


EDIT:
Testing heavily favors
Fire III > Fire II x3 > Flare > Transpose > Blizzard II/Freeze > Blizzard II/Freeze > Repeat
over either
Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Freeze > Freeze > Repeat OR Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Blizzard II > Blizzard II > Repeat

Between those, I got a ~10 dps increase using Freeze over Blizzard II.
Same with the Fire II rotation. I got around ~10 dps increase using Freeze.
With Fire II though, I got an amazing ~30-40 dps increase over just using Flare.

I've been sticking with (run out of MP) > Thunder I > (Blizzard I if not close to a tick or wait a split second if I am) > Fire III > Fire I spam > repeat. Even though Thunder II has a tiny, almost insignificant bit more potency per second than Thunder, it's more time away from our AH3 phase. This also helps with the weird amounts of MP we sometimes end up with due Thunder's MP cost often counting now after your MP tick, so at those times we can just do Blizzard I first and be okay.

I used to parse about 320+ without obscene procs with my gear, now it's closer to 310 on an average test in full i90 gear and i95 weapon. It's a shame but whatever, nothing I can do about it but make the best of it.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

In the long run, fast-casting Fire 1 isnt/wasnt a gain. You cast it in 1.25s, and then wait out the rest of the 2.5s gcd... for example.
Fast-casting anything that was equal to the gcd didnt make the gcd any shorter... but fast-casting something longer than the gcd (Fire 3 and Flare) was always a gain.

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It hurts because we don't get a free Firestarter check off of double dip Fire I, and while that's often not an issue in the rotation too much, it hurts our burst a lot.

I used to love burst damage situations, going into UI3 and double dipping our stuff, with how easy the MP regen was and going into either Fire III > Fire III or Fire III > Fire I with free Firestarter check before the next GCD. Now I feel so much less effective when a burst mechanic comes out, like Titan EM rocks, Ifrit EM spikes, Conflags, etc.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

As an update, the ST rotation has not changed for me aside from one small change: Thunder III instead of Thunder II inside the rotation. This is because the extra cast time on Thunder III makes the rotation more fluid now that we can't "cheat" on Umbral Ice to get a tick of mana at or shortly after our Fire III casts.

As for the AoE rotation, it hasn't changed either but it's just a bit less now than it used to be as we can no longer fast-cast Flare and Blizzard II's damage was reduced.

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The problem with Thunder III is that you have to sacrifice a Fire I to have enough MP unless you have crazy amounts of Piety. I haven't tested it yet but it sounds like a DPS loss for sure.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

AoE testing

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I get similar results in testing against 3 enemies. Flare as the central point of AoE just doesn't seem viable anymore, sadly.

I also tried Fire III > Fire II spam until dry > Blizzard III > Freeze > repeat, that tested lower than Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > Transpose > Freeze > Freeze > repeat.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I get similar results in testing against 3 enemies. Flare as the central point of AoE just doesn't seem viable anymore, sadly.

I also tried Fire III > Fire II spam until dry > Blizzard III > Freeze > repeat, that tested lower than Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > Transpose > Freeze > Freeze > repeat.

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Thanks.
I will say this though.

This rotation -
Fire III > Fire II > Flare > Transpose > Repeat
seems to parser higher than any of the above mentioned. It was mentioned in some of the other BLM threads.

I don't believe in it though!
A BLM rotation without any ice spells just seems wrong to me. However, it did test higher.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Thanks.
This rotation -
Fire III > Fire II > Flare > Transpose > Repeat
seems to parser higher than any of the above mentioned. It was mentioned in some of the other BLM threads.

I don't believe in it though!
A BLM rotation without any ice spells just seems wrong to me. However, it did test higher.

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Mentioned by Kalvin1783 in Blizzard II nerf for BLM too severe. See my post for the math.

I know what you mean. No ice spells seems like a ridiculous idea for a good rotation. Guess you have to think outside of the box!

Thanks for credit! I believe SirGazuntai‎ should get a mention for his thread So, I tested some BLM rotations... and his rotation testing. He did a very good job organizing his information and putting it together for everyone to use. He also put in a lot of leg work figuring out the kinks in the rotation and understanding how to make it smooth (especially how it auto-syncs itself to the server ticks after the first rotation.) Good work Sir!

Also, Louro999 submitted a nearly identical rotation a few minutes before mine that should probably be looked into. I noticed you (O-Deka-K) said "Adding more Fire 2 always increases DPS, even for 2 targets." His uses two Fire 2's instead of one (Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Flare > Transpose > Repeat), so theoretically that one should be better. I was wondering if you could check the PPS on that one as well with your equation. If it's better even by a tiny bit I would rather use it. I was always under the impression that Fire 2 is not very good DPS, and was only using it as filler for transpose cool down.

Thanks for your work as well! Glad to see BLM doesn't need a bug to do broken AOE DPS. :D