Summoners useless in 24mans?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Yes it is, it's very obvious when you use a summoner skill called "Fester" wich will only do damage if your characters DoT abillities on on the monster. Go to any popular fate like Svara a meaty mob with way more than 24 zerging it and you will be able to see the 30 status effect cap tick over.

When this happens cast Bio, Miasma, Bio II (All skill that will allow Fester to proc and do damage) You will promptly see "No effect" tick instead of damage because your DoT's have been overwritten by other characters.

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Yes, that's exactly what I was asking... if there was any sort of message that said 'no effect'. Now I know there is. Back when I was leveling SMN, the population cap was still in place so I wasn't experiencing these issues. We'll have to see what happens in 24-man content. Regardless, no one should be 'class stacking' like they were in 1.0 (BLM on Garuda/CC, MNK on AV, etc). If a summoner typically has four DoTs up and constantly rolling, that would be only twelve 'debuff' slots if there was one SMN per party in the 'alliance'. That's less than half of the bar.

Summoner damage is reliable as long as the SMN knows how to stay alive. Our damage keeps ticking as we move, and our burst (Fester) is instant. That doesn't mean our job is 'easy'. We still have to dodge things, and we do have our weaknesses. I suspect that the debuff slots were created with the intention of preventing people from stacking certain classes (such as SMN, which I assume SE thought would be incredibly popular since it was the brand new 'shiny' pet class).

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Yes, that's exactly what I was asking... if there was any sort of message that said 'no effect'. Now I know there is. Back when I was leveling SMN, the population cap was still in place so I wasn't experiencing these issues. We'll have to see what happens in 24-man content. Regardless, no one should be 'class stacking' like they were in 1.0 (BLM on Garuda/CC, MNK on AV, etc). If a summoner typically has four DoTs up and constantly rolling, that would be only twelve 'debuff' slots if there was one SMN per party in the 'alliance'. That's less than half of the bar.

Summoner damage is reliable as long as the SMN knows how to stay alive. Our damage keeps ticking as we move, and our burst (Fester) is instant. That doesn't mean our job is 'easy'. We still have to dodge things, and we do have our weaknesses. I suspect that the debuff slots were created with the intention of preventing people from stacking certain classes (such as SMN, which I assume SE thought would be incredibly popular since it was the brand new 'shiny' pet class).

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You don't need to class stack to reach 30 debuffs/dots. It counts every debuff and dot that can be applied from one character that is stackable, and there are a lot.

SMN damage is pretty crappy without the dots and fester btw. Take that away and they are one of the more useless classes on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

Glad you brought this up. At what time should you ask 20 players not to use half of their abilities (since alot of skills have debuffs attached) just so a couple of smns in the alliance can perform as designed? Never...ever...ever.

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Is it so crazy to ask players to plan instead of handing out trophies for facerolling?

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Originally Posted by Reika

You don't need to class stack to reach 30 debuffs/dots. It counts every debuff and dot that can be applied from one character that is stackable, and there are a lot.

SMN damage is pretty crappy without the dots and fester btw. Take that away and they are one of the more useless classes on the battlefield.

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I know how useless SMN is without DoTs... I'd be a pretty bad SMN if I didn't. =P I really would like to wait and see what Crystal Tower is going to look like. People have 'proved' that there IS a cap based on FATE mobs, but we all know that a ridiculous amount of people do those FATEs so it's not an accurate assessment of twenty-four raid members. It is known that summoners have the capacity to stack more debuffs on a mob than any other class (and USUALLY do), which is why I am saying avoiding class stacking will be a good way to keep the number down. Perhaps this 'cap' will be increased in the Crystal Tower. We just can't know for sure yet.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Is it so crazy to ask players to plan instead of handing out trophies for facerolling?

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Knew someone was going to say this....

How about we just not have a dot/debuff limit so content wont become exclusionary.


Oh yay, post limit...

having someone assigned to stuns is one thing, but telling 4/6 summoners that happen to be in your duty finder group (oh yea, crystal tower will have stuff like that happen) not to do damage really wont go well. The 30 debuff/dot limit doesn't even get touched in 4 or 8 man parties, so people think its not such a big deal until the full party size just triples. They really cant have any encounters where 24 people are attacking 1 thing in a raid environment, a duty environment espeically, unless they fix this.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Knew someone was going to say this....

How about we just not have a dot/debuff limit so content wont become exclusionary.

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On that topic, people already DO ask others to not use certain abilities so as to not mess up the fight.

Example: stuns. If anyone but the designated stunner(s) uses an ability that stuns, the mob will start 'resisting'. This is super common in Ifrit, when a PLD is on stun duty and someone else accidentally stuns... then the PLD's next stun will be resisted and eruptions will go off. (Inb4 people are like "oh but PLD aren't the only stunners, wars and other melee can do it too" and "you can still beat the fight without stuns -- just dodge eruption). The reason I mention this example is because it's something a lot of people can relate to... whether they are far along in 'endgame' or not. Another example is Chimera. You really, really need to stop those abilities from going off... whether it be from stunning him or silencing him or whatever you can do. If you have designated stunners and someone else stuns, it messes the whole fight up.

I'm not defending or 'apologizing' for this behavior, but I did want to point it out because people seem to be talking about how asking other people to alter the way they play is extremely outrageous and far-fetched. It's not. Ideally, though, there would be no cap.

Ryuko I think your missing the point some people are making which is people will not want too many summoners in their group because of the limit.

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Originally Posted by Roaminggnome

Ryuko I think your missing the point some people are making which is people will not want too many summoners in their group because of the limit.

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My point is... You don't NEED that many summoners in your group. As I said, this could be a measure to prevent class stacking.

Let's look at a typical 8 person party. For argument's sake, we'll have an equal distribution of classes (leaving out the arguments/bickering of who is the better tank/healer/caster/melee).

2 tanks (paladin+warrior)
2 healers (white mage+scholar)
4 dps (four of the following: dragoon/monk/black mage/summoner/bard)

Keep in mind that a LOT of classes share certain 'additional effects' that overwrite each other and affect diminishing returns. One good example is blind. I bring this up because summoners have Ruin II which applies this. If other classes use an effect that blinds, you will notice the diminishing returns and you will also notice their effect 'replace' yours. It is also important to remember that not every class will be attacking the same mob at the same time. Main tanks and off tanks often 'split up', effectively splitting their effects. Healers don't often cast much on a mob outside of the occasional Virus.

If you don't class stack, summoners really have nothing to worry about. YES, the 30 debuff limit should be changed and/or lifted... but like I said, even if you have one summoner per party in the three party 'alliance', that's only 12 'constant' debuffs from the SMN (assuming you use thunder, which you should), give or take a few for situations (namely virus although plenty of other mages will throw this up as needed because of the large cooldown... such as on Titan for MB). We are the class with the MOST debuffs by far, only three of which actually affect our fester burst damage.

Still... it seems almost silly to speculate because we don't know what will happen in 24-man dungeons. I can understand why they put a 'cap' on FATE mobs... too many debuffs and the mobs would die even faster than they already do, and that's already way too fast... those fights are a joke.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

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It's only a concern for larger scaled fights, like open world ones and the upcoming 24 man raid, not in 8 or 4 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Menubrea

It's only a concern for larger scaled fights, like open world ones and the upcoming 24 man raid, not in 8 or 4 dungeons.

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I know, and that's what I'm talking about.

If there is one summoner per 'raid' party, that's three summoners per raid... 12 total DoTs from all summoner (considering the typical four DoTs a summoner USUALLY keeps rolling on one target).

As I said... we don't know how this 'cap' will be changed/altered in Crystal Tower. It hasn't even been added yet. To be quite honest, I am not at all concerned about whether or not I will be wanted in a 24-man dungeon.