I'm not sure why this is a big deal. I think at some point during beta it was stated that paladins are meant to be main tanks, while warriors were DPS/Off-tanks. I don't know why there is such a huge misunderstanding of the role of a warrior. You could ask "why not bring a paladin to off-tank" because a paladin doesn't put out anything near decent DPS and you shouldn't have to choose between an off-tank and DPS. If you want to tank, level your PLD skills and quit crying.
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09-11-2013, 02:28 AMsybase
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09-11-2013, 02:38 AMWangstrongNo, it was not stated that warriors are meant to be off-tanks (except by paladin players, strangely enough). It would make no sense to devote a class to off-tanking for several reasons, the most important ones being the fact that there's almost no need for an off-tank in this game and the fact that you can't queue for things as "off-tank" and the game doesn't try to match warriors with paladins so they both have to be viable main tanks. Nothing supports the notion that warriors should be secondary tanks except the fact that paladin players keep saying it. The misunderstanding is on your part, and the warrior class is simply underpowered. The solution is not to "level PLD and stop crying." Christ almighty.Quote:
Originally Posted by sybase
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09-11-2013, 02:38 AMHachiko
A lot of people (primarily PLD players) seem to completely over-estimate the effectiveness of 25% more HP. They see defiance as a double buff (or triple), without considering the fact that in terms of defense it actually pales in comparison to Shield Oath.
Here is the thing with 25% more HP: Warriors need it in order to stay alive as long as a PAL and in order to be able to take a single hit of the same magnitude. Since there is no damage reduction, without the 25% additional HP a WAR would be killed very quickly by most bosses, patticularly in any situation in which a boss has a heavy hitting ability followed by an auto attack.
20% damage reduction is effectively the same as 25% additional HP and 25% additional healing received. Here is an easy way to think about it: A boss does 1000 damage per second.
A non-tank with 4000 HP has an ETA of 4 seconds to death.
A PLD with Shield Oath and 4000 HP has an ETA of 5 seconds to death. (20% reduction reduces the 1000 damage per second to 800, 4000/800 = 5)
A WAR with Defiance and *base* 4000 HP has an ETA of 5 seconds to death. (no reduction, 5000 HP after defiance, 5000/1000 = 5 )
So we have a good baseline of how much healing is required to keep them alive. A WAR would need to receive 1000 Heals per second. With Defiance at 5 stacks all the time that works out to ~870 heals per second required. A PLD on the other hand would need to receive 800 heals per second.
So, from a baseline, Warriors simply will require far more healing to keep alive assuming you can constantly have 5 stacks of defiance. This means at a baseline, out of the gate, warriors are behind paladins in terms of staying alive.
When you look at it in practice, it's even worse because you won't constantly be Infuriated as a WAR, which drops your average healing received even lower. And to top that off PLD has a shield which further adds to damage mitigation.
The whole situation is much more complicated though, due to the various active mitigation techniques each Job has. But for the most part, PLD have much stronger cooldowns, and more of them.
Then does that mean that paladins need to be nerfed, since they are more than capable of running the content out of order?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayman
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09-11-2013, 02:44 AMSakasaThe internet where punching ponies in the face is both frowned upon as well as celebrated we shall forever be a people divided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnagraphic
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09-11-2013, 02:57 AMsybaseI believe you're jumping the gun in your assumption based on the 2 week old content currently available. Look at the mechanics, PLD does almost ZERO damage but generates large amounts of threat. They are meant to tank and do nothing else. On the other hand the warrior class puts out decent dps with some increases in healing received. The warrior is meant to be a cross-over class. They're not the best damage dealer, nor the best tank, but they're probably 75% effective at both and can fill both roles in an 8 or 24 man raid. Once the real end game material starts to roll out and raid spots are at a premium, warriors will have their VERY important role of secondary tank and DPSing when not tanking. This is not a new MMO concept. I'm simply saying that the warriors primary role is not to tank. They are to fill that raid spot where you need another tank on Boss 1 and more DPS on Boss 2 without having to swap players in and out of the raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangstrong
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09-11-2013, 03:00 AMBaymanQuite simply it means that the current gear step is going from T0 to T2 (forgive me if I have the T#'s off, but you get the gist). The T1 set may be itemized to make Warriors godly tanks and paladins "off tanks and back-up healers". Perhaps the dps will be increased to the point where only a Warrior can hold threat and groups need to decide if they want blazing speed or safe runs. Games like these change frequently. They designed it with two tank classes, not a main tank / off tank system. Endgame has not been established yet, and will not be for months to come. We will all have to wait and see how things unfold without damning half of the tanking classes (which we are in desperate need of more tanks across all servers) to no end game viability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
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09-11-2013, 03:05 AMAdragen
The OP's point is fairly obvious, even before getting to end game. The classes were designed to fill different roles. Same as every other MMO before it. Different tank classes will be better at different fights. The one fight he is describing, sounds like it might be better suited for Paladins. But with the Warriors deep health pool and good damage, I bet there will be fights that will better suit the warrior. A good guild will bring both and swap between them as needed.
Stop whining and start gearing up. You'll be needed. -
09-11-2013, 03:21 AMDeloreanno, what you need to understand is that "endgame" is two level 50 dungeons which reward currency that is not equivalent to time spent, 3 boss fights, and a raid that some classes can't contribute to at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by SatrinaKali
That argument would stand if there was more in the game, but there is not.
maybe if you spent less time crying about warriors crying about paladins being able to skip the gearing up process, you could be crying about how bcob is too hard and how paladins are actually just really badQuote:
Originally Posted by sybase
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09-11-2013, 03:23 AMPsyotix
Just level both up, and play which ever your group needs.
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09-11-2013, 04:18 AMHollowEarth
gotta keep in mind there is more to this that just the boss hitting a warrior harder.
Warrior does WAY more damage than a boss, there for the boss will be alive for less amount of time. i understand this is assuming a healer can keep a tank alive. if you are cycling your cool downs and a healer knows what to do (stoneskin on a warrior is heaven) you should be fine.
if you play a warrior and have no issues then you understand its alot harder to do than bang your face on the keyboard and tank a boss like a PLD.
fact is a pally is a defence tank simple as that. a warrior has a MUCH high health pool, +healing buffs and a ton of good self heals. what a warrior lacks they can get some another class. to be a good group with a warrior MT you also need healers that know what they are doing as well. one if your spamming cure 2, your doing it wrong. just sayin.