Evolved mode has zero failure states

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Originally Posted by RaionKansen

Dang did you time travel from 2027 to know everything about evolved mode?

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Wow, so the 4 jobs they handpicked to introduce evolved mode had nothing to do with the evolved mode kits? Wonder why they bothered showing them.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Wow, so the 4 jobs they handpicked to introduce evolved mode had nothing to do with the evolved mode kits? Wonder why they bothered showing them.

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We have breadcrumbs of information at best. We got a sneak peak at a version of a few jobs that's so early they don't have skill icons or job gauges.

We've yet to see the full list of job actions & traits and we've yet to see if there will be an actual improvement to battle content in the expansion.

They clearly thought the general design ideas were fleshed out enough to show off, which is the worrying part.

And I quite frankly could not care less about "improvement to the battle content" that may or may not happen in 8.X because it hasn't fixed a single thing about how increasingly dogwater the gameplay has been since Shadowbringers.
So highly unlikely that the battle content can fix anything this time either if evolved jobs turn out to be as bad as they currently look.

Why is the resident GIF shitposter getting into debates then deleting their posts lmao

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I think the bigger question, is that if we had Shield Swipe originally without the split, and we have DRK's TBN now as a pseudo-parry system without the split... why do we even need the split in the first place? It seems like it's just going to result in a similar issue to the Pure/Barrier split, where one side doesn't really function together properly in cutting-edge content (IE trying to do Week1 as WHM AST), and the other either 'works just fine if you have a bit of coordination' or 'is actually arguably optimal' (IE, SCH SGE having way more mitigative potential than 1Pure/1Barrier). I would imagine that, since OT needs to be able to survive in what is 'current content' right now, it needs 'at least as much personal surviveability as it has currently'. In which case, you could probably bring two OTs, double up on the Party Mit they supposedly have a larger focus on in their kit, and make any Mit Checks easier on the team, and any 'personal mitigation' challenges the game throws at a 2OT comp, they can overcome with Invulns, and/or externals like Protraction, Aquaveil etc. to shore up their defenses if needed

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To be honest I want an actual pure/barrier split, the thing is this game doesn't commit to either side. Either all healers are basically substitutable with each other (not true as you said with WHM+AST) or go all-in on the pure/barrier split and make it so that they have a meaningfully different gameplay style (not true either).

This game doesn't even give you a "tank fantasy", since 99% of your job is getting melee uptime (??????????????????????????????), with the MT/OT split it will literally still be the same thing, getting melee uptime. Oh no, I need to calculate exactly what skill speed to hit so I can disengage and plunge in without using a ranged GCD..... this is FF14 tanking in 2026. Healing is the same, but worse since there's nothing to think about anymore with your rotation. It's pretty much free in everything below Savage.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

If its relative then why is this thread throwing it out to agree on? OP's idea of it could be literally anything and that is my point. Job design and casual encounters parameters are also based on subjective experience and preferences. One thing we can say is party/solo DPS ultimately isn't solely based on direct action potency, so I am not seeing your point about Sky High until later in the post. As far as casual content its like...we haven't even seen a new encounter yet and the standard is in the toilet right now with any party comp all blind at launch casual clears???

The points about the skill ceiling are backed by data but I disagree on the solution, that it doesn't matter whether you are talking about HW vs EW levels of skill expression or rotation design. Your position here is leaving space for any given person to say "think of the dots and transpose and how good we had it". If Evolved fails, the solution is not Reborn mode, its something else entirely, some other new idea, or HW level rework. You say you don't care but you should, especially if your position is that what you are currently being offered further erodes the space between an optimizer and a casual, or whatever you want to call them. Isn't that proof in itself that it can and will get worse in the absence of well formulated and organized consenus.

Forgot to mention also the point about Sky High being "all DRG has", or weaving loss being a concern..skill expression isn't gone its just changing. We need to also see a. Final versions b. Encounters and c. All the jobs. I feel like this is where all these topics end up. Educated guesses and historical precedents can only take us so far.

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Well my personal position is that in casual content there should be giga-brained room for optimization on at least half of the jobs that give you at least 10% DPS advantage or 20% "QoL advantage" that no casual will ever achieve, and give you room for skill expression.

Back then there was stuff like quelling strikes, goad, refresh, on the simple end of things (and even then 80% of people don't even use them lmao). On the sweaty side there's stuff like pet-swapping to maximize damage on HW SMN between pulls, using manual Embrace to focus on tank to let HoTs naturally heal people up. But none of these are required for the clear, they all disappeared because people kept complaining -_-

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I'm also willing to give them a chance considering how their goal is to evolve the game
even if things dont work out, at least it'll be different. Which is what i wanted after 6 years of shadowbringers in a row lol

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I am definitely aligned with that statement.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I am definitely aligned with that statement.

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This is also pretty much how I feel.

Any change is better than more of the same and there's just not enough information currently for me to get worked up about anything. I'd rather just chill out, focus on the new ultimate coming up, and also try to get DSR and TEA done before 8.0.

I think more than anything Evolved mode is going to heavily rely on the encounter design for 8.0 also being "evolved". All things I have no control over. Just gonna have to hope and wait.

Some of you are going to be in for a rude awakening when Evolved isn't that much different from regular combat. It's still the same game, with (hopefully) a more compact and less rigid rotation.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

That is the case in MOBAs because you're fighting other human beings. There is no PvE boss design that could ever come close to emulating that. No matter how emergent the encounters end up being, nothing can make up for mindless job design.

Also, to use Dota 2 as an example since I unfortunately happen to have thousands of hours in it, all of those heroes have depth to them that require you to make various judgement calls during the match, and you can royally F yourself and/or your team over if you make the wrong choices. Even heroes with relatively simple kits still have to think about what items to make to counter the enemy heroes or prevent being countered like everyone else, and most of those items have active abilities tied to them as well. That depth is pretty much what people are asking for from evolved mode in this thread and elsewhere.

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People often forget it but Dota 2 has an AI mode.
It won't provide the same kind of challenge or chaos than true humans, but it will provide enough rng to still engage with most of the system.
I've played against bots in that game and the characters and the battle system was as engaging as vs humans, minus the difficulty/challenge ofc.

It's never been a problem of fighting against humans or AIs.
It's been about encounters scripted to the core with zero variable beyond damage and healing.